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 Post subject: Another question about Latin
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:04 am 
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Fr. and I got into a discussion about this the other day, regarding a small recitation we make after mass.

Please excuse spelling, as I don't know much Latin at all. I just spell it like it sounds.

Priest: Procit
Server: Et omnibus et singularis.

Now, Fr. and I are confused because he thinks he remembers being taught it in the way I wrote above. However, we are now wondering if the second line shouldn't be "Pro omnibus et singularis" - for all and for one. Wouldn't "et ominbus" be "and al and one"?

Minor, I know. But we sat around and debated it for a while and never really came to a solid conclusion.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:41 am 
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Anybody?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:03 am 
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ErikB, et = and, you are right. The words "omnibus" and "singularis" are in the dative case, however, which makes them mean "to all" and "to ones". I have no idea which wording is correct.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:48 pm 
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[Prosit, not procit]. Pro is correct in the response; liturgical Latin often uses a preposition where, according to the strict rules of classical Latin, none is needed.

Singularis, however, is incorrect, since it's an adjective (meaning singular), not a noun or pronoun. Singulis is what you're looking for. And, since pro takes the ablative, both omnibus and singulis are in the ablative.

So, all in all, it should be:
Prosit:
Pro omnibus et singulis

But if you want to be 100% sure, you'd probably have to find a server's manual for the Tridentine Mass. I don't have one.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:14 pm 
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PROSIT (verb: singular, third person, subjunctive, present) comes from PROSUM, PRODESSE. That's declined like the irregular verb SUM, ESSE, etc.

The phrase ET ... ET ... means BOTH ... AND ...

That's all I know, folks.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:45 pm 
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lbt wrote:
PROSIT (verb: singular, third person, subjunctive, present) comes from PROSUM, PRODESSE. That's declined like the irregular verb SUM, ESSE, etc.

The phrase ET ... ET ... means BOTH ... AND ...

That's all I know, folks.


Let me see if I get this right:

So you're saying that the phrase, "Et omnibus et singulis" would translate to "Both to all and to one"? (roughly, of course) and that "Pro omnibus et singulis" would be wrong in this case?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:56 pm 
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Pro omnibus et singulis is a very common phrase, but I have never seen it in any Traditional Mass book. (I only have access to the Roman Rite 1962 and the Dominican rite...could he have been taught in some other rite?)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:26 pm 
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I couldn't find it in our library anywhere. I, too, wonder where it came from.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:33 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Pro omnibus et singulis is a very common phrase, but I have never seen it in any Traditional Mass book. (I only have access to the Roman Rite 1962 and the Dominican rite...could he have been taught in some other rite?)


I'm not real sure. I was talking to him today about how Obi-Wan mentioned "Pro omnibus..." being correct, and he said that he was shocked because, while it made sense to him, all the scholars he spent time with in Rome had always said "et omnibus".

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:46 am 
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ErikB wrote:
Let me see if I get this right:

So you're saying that the phrase, "Et omnibus et singulis" would translate to "Both to all and to one"? (roughly, of course) and that "Pro omnibus et singulis" would be wrong in this case?


I think PRO OMNIBUS ET SINGULIS makes more sense.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:03 am 
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There is a Jesuit novice, who has defined "Prosit" as well as "Pro Omnibus et Singulis". See his blog dated July 3, 2006:

Explanation of the novice's blog Pro Omnibus et Singulis

Quote:
For the Latin deprived, I thought a brief explanation of the title of this blog is in order.

'Pro omnibus et singulis' means 'for all and for each'. This blog is not meant to be that far reaching, my limitations as a writer and linguist will ensure a more modest scope. The title of this blog is taken from a traditional prayer after mass. Specifically, the response given by the altar servers after the priest says, 'pro sit', idiomatically 'may it be to you benefit'.

This is a wonderful, though often neglected little prayer. It capture succinctly the relationship at mass between the individual, the community, and the world. The mass transcends individual piety, it is 'for all and for each', faith is 'for all and for each', the justice which faith call for is 'for all and for each'. This little prayer should be a reminder that the very personal act of prayer must eventually go beyond the individual.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:21 am 
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Awesome. Thanks!

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