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 Post subject: Teaching Chant
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:25 pm 
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Greetings,

It would be very difficult to just spring chant on people. There is even a different musical notation. For those who have parishes who do chant, how do you teach chant?

Do your students learn chant in their schools? Do they use the Ward Method? Do they have courses for adults?

Or does the choir just do the chants and the congregation listens? Do they have english translations of the latin texts so they can pray the words as they hear the music?

Lots of practical questions.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:22 pm 
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I'm learning chant, but its Byzantine, so an entirely different notation :)

Of course I'm currently without a voice as I had a thyroid removal last week, so I can't even handle what little I've learned so far.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:31 pm 
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How am I supposed to have full conscious and active participation in a mass where the "songs" are these watered down gospelly nonsense that can't be sung by the human being? Who writes this stuff? And i know it's supposed to appeal to the contemporary ear but hey newsflash: no one wants to sing this stuff as evidenced by the fact that no one really does. Even the chanter has problems managing these awkward melodies and I'm not talking just in my parish but in many others I've heard mass in. I propose that you give folks a chanted mass and everyone in that building will be singing along full voice in a very short time! I've seen it happen. PEOPLE LIKE CHANT!!! PEOPLE LOVE CHANT! PEOPLE WILL NOT SING UNSINGABLE "MELODIES"!!! You remember those Chant records from back in the 90's? They sold what, how many gazillion copies?

These new mass songs were written by a committe for the destruction of music i just know it.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:32 pm 
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A great deal of Richard Proulx's work is suggestive of traditional chant. Perhaps it could be used as a transitional type of music. Once the people become accustomed to the differences between regular music and chant-style singing, you could progress to Gregorian with its square notation.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:34 pm 
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BTW this new forum is a great idea. Thanks TP.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching Chant
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:36 pm 
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TP wrote:
Do they use the Ward Method?


do you have a link for this?

Our choir director hammers it into the boys (age 8 up to voice break), who pick it up chant rather quickly. In terms of techinque (used for 4 part harmony music as well)

1. enunciate the Latin,
2. enunciate the Latin to the beat of director's clapped hands keeping time,
3. "oo" the musical part without the words,
and finally..
4. put it all together.

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“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:19 pm 
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Greetings,

YOu said: I'm learning chant, but its Byzantine, so an entirely different notation

Response: How is Byzantine chant notated? I love going to the Byzantine church by the university I attended. They sang everything. It was glorious. The congregation was the choir.

peace

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:25 pm 
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Greetings,

You said: no one wants to sing this stuff as evidenced by the fact that no one really does.

Response: Actually, I like to sing a lot of the stuff. I enjoy a lot of it. I don't think a lot of it is appropriate for liturgy, but I do have fun singing it. Example: 'Go make a difference' is in the OCP breaking bread hymnal. It is fun to sing, and has a positive message. However, it does not mention God and spends more time describing US than God. Is it appropriate for liturgy-- I don't think so, but it is a fun secular song and I like singing it. So I wouldn't make broad generalization about what people like.

You said: I propose that you give folks a chanted mass and everyone in that building will be singing along full voice in a very short time!

Response: I think chant is very good, but have you tried to sing out of the Roman gradual. It is very difficult music even for a trained choir. If we did chant I don't think many would sing the propers, but they may sing the responses. What do you think of english with the chant?

I do believe chant is important.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:29 pm 
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Greetings,

You asked for a link to the ward method. Here is one. There is a link on this page also to a place to purchase material.

http://www.musicasacra.com/ward.html

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:52 pm 
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TP wrote:
Greetings,

You said: no one wants to sing this stuff as evidenced by the fact that no one really does.

Response: Actually, I like to sing a lot of the stuff. I enjoy a lot of it. I don't think a lot of it is appropriate for liturgy, but I do have fun singing it. Example: 'Go make a difference' is in the OCP breaking bread hymnal. It is fun to sing, and has a positive message. However, it does not mention God and spends more time describing US than God. Is it appropriate for liturgy-- I don't think so, but it is a fun secular song and I like singing it. So I wouldn't make broad generalization about what people like.

You said: I propose that you give folks a chanted mass and everyone in that building will be singing along full voice in a very short time!

Response: I think chant is very good, but have you tried to sing out of the Roman gradual. It is very difficult music even for a trained choir. If we did chant I don't think many would sing the propers, but they may sing the responses. What do you think of english with the chant?

I do believe chant is important.

peace


Well i should clarify here that i wasn't speaking so much about hymnal stuff as I was a lot of the melodies that are used in NO masses for the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei parts of the mass. Can't really communicate this exactly in a post but perhaps I've helped give the idea of what I'm talking about.

as for chanting, I'm not even talking about traditional Latin chant as much as the style of this musically that is sometimes translated into the congregational singing of the mass prayers like I mentioned above, chanting of the Our Father and the Creed and such like that - simple chants that can be learned quickly. Am I getting understood here?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:28 pm 
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TP wrote:
Greetings,

YOu said: I'm learning chant, but its Byzantine, so an entirely different notation

Response: How is Byzantine chant notated? I love going to the Byzantine church by the university I attended. They sang everything. It was glorious. The congregation was the choir.

peace


The notation is a relative notation. That is, each subsequent symbol represents movement from your previous location on the scale (keeping in mind that there are 4 different scales in use among the 8 tones). At certain points throughout the notation there will be a symbol representing where you should be (what note) so you can check yourself. This checkpoint can also be used to indicate whether a scale shift is happening.

Here is an example:

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Image:Byzantine_Notation.jpg

(You'll have to click the link as its a wiki image and so won't load as would be normal).

In the very upper left you'll see a downstroke. This is essentially a measure demarcation (similar in appearance to a rest, but I don't have the rest notation memorized yet). The next mark is horizontal with a little curl on the end. That is an ison, which means to stay on the same note. The next is an apostrophos (the next on the line. The mark above is a rhythm alteration mark), which means to move down one scale degree.

When I've been studying, which I haven't now for a few weeks, I'm not too shabby with basic notation. There are a lot of symbols that are quite similar so it can be confusing as you get to the more complex symbols. The hardest part for me is that I've not yet learned all of the scales by ear, so that I know the notes. On top of that, while you can approximate the diatonic scale on a piano, you cannot do that well with the other scales.

Fortunately, this is a multi-year project, at the end of which I hope to be tonsured a Psaltis. We shall see, as I fear that my limited talents are not up to the task.

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For from the rising of the sun even to its going down, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered to My name, and a pure offering, for My name shall be great among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 1:11, LXX)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:31 pm 
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thebyronicman wrote:
BTW this new forum is a great idea. Thanks TP.


Ditto!!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:35 pm 
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AncientFaith wrote:
Fortunately, this is a multi-year project, at the end of which I hope to be tonsured a Psaltis. We shall see, as I fear that my limited talents are not up to the task.


I should point out that one doesn't really need to know the notation to chant. If you are fortunate enough to be in a parish with a trained psaltis, then you will simply learn over time by ear. There are patterns appropriate to each of the different tones, and you just learn to use those. Historically, children would grow up hearing these variations and the move on to performing the chants themselves. There is some amount of theologizing going on, as you can move to one of the accepted variations for the tone and make slight alterations in the mood.

Learning the notation and the scales is useful in my case where I haven't grown up listening to this, and so it could take years just to have heard all of the variations once through and become familiar with them. In my parish a lot of the chant responses and prayers are done by a choir who are not doing traditional byzantine chant, so that reduces my exposure.

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For from the rising of the sun even to its going down, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered to My name, and a pure offering, for My name shall be great among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 1:11, LXX)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:54 pm 
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Greetings,

You said: BTW this new forum is a great idea. Thanks TP

Response: Then lets get some new threads and keep the action going as we discuss the Opus Dei which is liturgy.

peace

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:08 am 
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AncientFaith wrote:
I should point out that one doesn't really need to know the notation to chant. If you are fortunate enough to be in a parish with a trained psaltis, then you will simply learn over time by ear. There are patterns appropriate to each of the different tones, and you just learn to use those.


Which is how it all used to be done anyhow. Musical notation started out as a reminder of what the singers were supposed to have already learned by rote.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:31 pm 
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Greetings,

You said: Which is how it all used to be done anyhow. Musical notation started out as a reminder of what the singers were supposed to have already learned by rote.

Response: That is true, but an entire generation has been raised on "Like a Sunflower". Chant sound odd and uncomfortable to them. Children and Old people seem to understand some of it.

I feel cheated by our church that they didn't do the liturgy as it was intended to be done. I should have been raised learning sacred music perhaps using the Ward Method, and in mass being familiar with all the chant modes, and worshipping God with dignity. NOT having house masses on coffee tables singing Kumbaya.

In seminary, THIS IS catholic Seminary, we would have Room masses where we would go to the professors rooms and have mass in the living room on an endtable. No wonder liturgy is in the state it is. How do we get that back?

peace

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:45 pm 
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TP wrote:
Greetings,

You asked for a link to the ward method. Here is one. There is a link on this page also to a place to purchase material.

http://www.musicasacra.com/ward.html


Thank you. I've passed it along to the director of the "schola"

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"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:48 pm 
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TP wrote:
In seminary, THIS IS catholic Seminary, we would have Room masses where we would go to the professors rooms and have mass in the living room on an endtable. No wonder liturgy is in the state it is. How do we get that back?

peace


Perhaps by offering the opposite in a similar setting? In other words, starting small, and out of the way. It seems that it should grow. You could introduce the elements in daily mass.

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"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:54 pm 
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An interesting article:


Image

Online Edition - October 2006
Vol. XII, No. 7

St. Mark's -- A Liturgy Without Hymns
by Joseph Swain
http://www.adoremus.org/1006LiturgyHymns.html

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"You seek me", St. Augustine comments, "for the flesh, not for the spirit. How many seek Jesus for no other purpose than that He may do them good in this present life! [...] Scarcely ever is Jesus sought for Jesus' sake" (In Ioann. Evang, 25, 10).

“therefore is my people led away captive, because they have not knowledge … therefore hath hell enlarged her mouth without any bounds” (Is 5:13-14).

But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Mt 24:13)


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