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 Post subject: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:07 am 
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The text of the latest Apostolic Exhortation from Pope Francis is now available in a variety of languages:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/ ... ltate.html

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:39 pm 
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I don’t have time right now to read Gaudete myself, and I take reporting on what Pope Francis says with a VERY large grain of salt; however, if early reporting on the letter has any merit, I’m not really happy about where the line in the sand has been drawn.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:28 pm 
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http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2018 ... s-in-love/

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:00 pm 
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I found this well written.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:21 pm 
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I don't think that the Holy Father is engaged in line-drawing. I think he's trying to encourage people to seek holiness.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't think that the Holy Father is engaged in line-drawing. I think he's trying to encourage people to seek holiness.


I wholeheartedly agree.

I sent the exhortation to my kids and it happens to be timely. We were just speaking on the topic of living our vocations and seeking holiness is whatever station of life we are called. (a car mechanic can seek holiness in honesty and seeking the better of the other.) I found the letter addresses clericalism. A problem that still exists. It promotes holiness by living one's vocation fully - wherever that may be. And clearly warns of the dangers of gossip and the sin of detraction. A problem that is worse in recent years with social media, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:57 am 
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"One particularly noteworthy point: When Francis began using the Gnostic/Pelagian combination of critiques early in his papacy, it seemed like the former was a critique of liberal tendencies and the latter of conservative temptations. In the latest document though it seems more like they're both just variations on the same critique of conservative rigidity -- the gnostics being sticklers for abstract doctrines, per Francis, and the pelagians sticklers for moral rules. This is a specific example of a general trend, where the Holy Father's seeming balancing act early in the pontificate -- the attempt to direct critiques both leftward and rightward, as it were -- has become a lecture delivered only to conservatives."
-Ross Douthat https://twitter.com/DouthatNYT

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:48 am 
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I am sad to see that people are busily engaged in missing the forest for the trees.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:02 am 
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One thing I liked is the frequent quotations from saints.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I am sad to see that people are busily engaged in missing the forest for the trees.


'Pharisees' is Francis' catch-all terms to describe his critics, by the term he seems to mean anyone who supports traditional theology or liturgy. To Francis, there are two kinds of people in this world, the tolerant, open-minded, worldly people, who agree with him, and the intolerant Pharisees who aren't even Christians at all, which are the people who criticize him. He has, for example, used the word 'Pharisee' to describe people who don't think that people who have been divorced and remarried without benefit of an annulment should be re-admitted back to communion, in other words, to Francis, a 'Pharisee' is someone who wants to stick with what Jesus said about divorce, and the 'real Christians' are the ones who think Jesus was wrong and agree with the position which the Pharisees advocated. It's delightfully Orwellian.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I am sad to see that people are busily engaged in missing the forest for the trees.


'Pharisees' is Francis' catch-all terms to describe his critics, by the term he seems to mean anyone who supports traditional theology or liturgy. To Francis, there are two kinds of people in this world, the tolerant, open-minded, worldly people, who agree with him, and the intolerant Pharisees who aren't even Christians at all, which are the people who criticize him. He has, for example, used the word 'Pharisee' to describe people who don't think that people who have been divorced and remarried without benefit of an annulment should be re-admitted back to communion, in other words, to Francis, a 'Pharisee' is someone who wants to stick with what Jesus said about divorce, and the 'real Christians' are the ones who think Jesus was wrong and agree with the position which the Pharisees advocated. It's delightfully Orwellian.


Quote:
The situation is more complicated than that, of course. This year, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei issued an indult permitting celebration of the Holy Week rites according to the books before Pius XII’s 1955 revisions. The indult, given to traditionalist orders like the Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) and the Institute of Christ the King (ICRSS), appears to have been given fairly liberal application. We are aware of several pre-1955 Holy Week celebrations personally and have heard of many more. One imagines that such a major decision would have involved the Pope at some stage. Moreover, it is hard to argue that the Society of St. Pius X has not gotten a better deal from Francis than it ever did from Benedict XVI or John Paul II. Francis has conceded priests of the Society the jurisdiction to hear confessions and witness marriages without receiving significant concessions in exchange from the Society. In other words, it is hard to be too gloomy about the state of tradition under Francis, since, whatever he may say, his actions are generally favorable toward tradition in a way his predecessors’ weren’t. Can one imagine John Paul or Benedict authorizing the use of the pre-1955 books for Holy Week? Can one imagine John Paul or Benedict opting for a unilateral resolution of some of the most vexing aspects of the SSPX situation?
https://semiduplex.com


Can someone explain the following note, please:
Quote:
[73] Detraction and calumny are acts of terrorism: a bomb is thrown, it explodes and the attacker walks away calm and contented. This is completely different from the nobility of those who speak to others face to face, serenely and frankly, out of genuine concern for their good.

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Jack3
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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Pope Francis is constantly ranting about the evils of 'rigidity',

In all seriousness, does anyone REALLY think that the main problem with the Church today, a Church in which people have absolutely no problem with showing up to Mass wearing a Metallica t-shirt and blue jeans with holes in the knees, is an excessive formality, strict adherence to the rules and RIGIDITY?

There may have well been times in Church history when there was too much rigidity, but this absolutely not the case today.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:19 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Pope Francis is constantly ranting about the evils of 'rigidity',

In all seriousness, does anyone REALLY think that the main problem with the Church today, a Church in which people have absolutely no problem with showing up to Mass wearing a Metallica t-shirt and blue jeans with holes in the knees, is an excessive formality, strict adherence to the rules and RIGIDITY?

There may have well been times in Church history when there was too much rigidity, but this absolutely not the case today.

I do not know of the situation of the Church in your country.

One of the numerous things to be improved in the Church, as I perceive it, is the excessive anger with which rules are enforced. Aggressive criticism should not be the "default mode" of priests, but employed in some situations only. Especially in an age when everyone has a sense of entitlement and autonomy, apparent vicious aggression actually produces the reverse result of turning people away from the Church.

I can invoke Pope St Pius X, of all people:But in order that the desired fruit may be derived from this apostolate and this zeal for teaching, and that Christ may be formed in all, be it remembered, Venerable Brethren, that no means is more efficacious than charity. "For the Lord is not in the earthquake" (III Kings xix., II) - it is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal. On the contrary, harm is done more often than good by taunting men harshly with their faults, and reproving their vices with asperity. True the Apostle exhorted Timothy: "Accuse, beseech, rebuke," but he took care to add: "with all patience" (II. Tim.iv., 2). Jesus has certainly left us examples of this. "Come to me," we find Him saying, "come to me all ye that labor and are burdened and I will refresh you" (Matth. xi., 28). And by those that labor and are burdened he meant only those who are slaves of sin and error. What gentleness was that shown by the Divine Master! What tenderness, what compassion towards all kinds of misery! Isaias has marvelously described His heart in the words: "I will set my spirit upon him; he shall not contend, nor cry out; the bruised reed he will not break, he will not extinguish the smoking flax" (Is. xlii., I, s.). This charity, "patient and kind" (I. Cor. xiii., 4.), will extend itself also to those who are hostile to us and persecute us. "We are reviled," thus did St. Paul protest, "and we bless; we are persecuted and we suffer it; we are blasphemed and we entreat" (I. Cor., iv., 12, s.). They perhaps seem to be worse than they really are. Their associations with others, prejudice, the counsel, advice and example of others, and finally an ill advised shame have dragged them to the side of the impious; but their wills are not so depraved as they themselves would seek to make people believe. Who will prevent us from hoping that the flame of Christian charity may dispel the darkness from their minds and bring to them light and the peace of God? It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.

On a side note, the Exhortation does not say that Pelagianism and Gnosticism are the greatest problems in the Church today. That, I interpret, is choosing for a bland and mediocre existence (n. 1). Pelagianism and Gnosticism are tendencies or temptations in the way of people who do seek the Lord. The Imitation of Christ memorably warns: What will you gain if you know about the Trinity, but lack humility and thus displease the Trinity? (quoting from memory)

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:15 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Can someone explain the following note, please:
Quote:
[73] Detraction and calumny are acts of terrorism: a bomb is thrown, it explodes and the attacker walks away calm and contented. This is completely different from the nobility of those who speak to others face to face, serenely and frankly, out of genuine concern for their good.

:bump

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Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:01 am 
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Quote:
I do not know of the situation of the Church in your country.

One of the numerous things to be improved in the Church, as I perceive it, is the excessive anger with which rules are enforced. Aggressive criticism should not be the "default mode" of priests, but employed in some situations only. Especially in an age when everyone has a sense of entitlement and autonomy, apparent vicious aggression actually produces the reverse result of turning people away from the Church.


That is definitely not the case here.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:49 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Quote:
I do not know of the situation of the Church in your country.

One of the numerous things to be improved in the Church, as I perceive it, is the excessive anger with which rules are enforced. Aggressive criticism should not be the "default mode" of priests, but employed in some situations only. Especially in an age when everyone has a sense of entitlement and autonomy, apparent vicious aggression actually produces the reverse result of turning people away from the Church.


That is definitely not the case here.

To be fair, that is not the no. 1 problem here either - it is imperfect catechesis and boring unsubstantial homilies.

But it is not without reason that Pope Francis is praised and admired for his criticism of some sections.

Let me try to explain what I mean by anger/aggression:

The following are based on my experiences with Fr. J:

There are fans in the Sanctuary (the climate is hot and humid) for the priest, who wears elaborate vestments. I was serving in the Altar. I am thin and the robes I was wearing were rather loose. Apparently, I was blocking the wind from the fan. It was not deliberate in the least. For this, he gestured and called me to him (during the Mass) and said something in my ear: It was far from a clear, succinct "Move to a side". It was not an imperative sentence but a declarative one, and it could not be interpreted in any way other than as an insult to my person.

On another occasion, he scolded me for doing a thing which I have never done in my life.

Once he publicly insulted the sacristan because that there wasn't enough holy water in the "karappa (aspersion)".

At the time he was assigned to our church, there were two other priests with him - including the kind Fr. D.

Once, Fr D noted that, at a specific point in the Mass, I (an Altar server) was holding my fingers in a wrong way. It did not harm the Mass, it was a minor thing. After the Mass, he called me privately and told me kindly but clearly, "You should not hold your hands this way, instead, you should hold them this way".

Fr D was liked by many. Fr J, on the other hand... - no one stopped practicing and fell from the faith, yet they felt great sorrow and felt that they were being mistreated and alienated from the Church.

Then there is a catechist who scolded a child very angrily for not coming to the morning Mass; the boy came to the catechism class, and said he would go to Mass in the evening. The catechist even said, "You are like a Protestant".

Then there is also a person in the office who seems to lack simple etiquette - Once I heard someone ask him, "Where can I-" and before he could finish speaking, he was interrupted, "Come at XYZ".

Once again, anger is not the major cause of crisis; but it is easily improvable.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Last edited by Jack3 on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:50 pm 
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Your English seems to have improved. Well, I can't actually remember it being poor. Anyway......

We have those same issues here as far as catechesis and homilies go. We had some hot tempered and interesting priests when I was a kid. We just think of them as "real characters".

Our problem with laxity here is not necessarily that the priest is nice, but that he is permissive about moral rules, such as birth control, divorce, etc. He may still be high strung. Most often the priests here are fairly soft spoken.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:33 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
Your English seems to have improved. Well, I can't actually remember it being poor.


Thank you :)

Quote:
not necessarily that the priest is nice, but that he is permissive about moral rules

I think I'm not understanding what you mean :scratch:

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:14 pm 
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I mean that the priest's temperament is not normally an issue here. Additionally, most are pretty easy going, as far as relating to them goes. They generally aren't very gruff, like what you described.

To put it a different way, the real problem we have is that they generally are too permissive, and fail to give people strong admonitions to do good and avoid sin, even so far as telling people certain sins are ok, or in their circumstance it is ok, or not to worry about it. A priest here in Texas was reassigned after a 16 year old penitent told his parents that he had been told in the confessional that 'self-abuse' is wrong. Which is really confusing because he was confessing it, so he would seem to have already known. It is unfortunate as well because the priest couldn't really defend himself as it dealt with a confession.

I realize that is an example of a priest doing the right thing, but his bishop didn't support him. On the other hand, I've known more than one priest who told people birth control was ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Gaudete et Exsultate
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Can someone explain the following note, please:
Quote:
[73] Detraction and calumny are acts of terrorism: a bomb is thrown, it explodes and the attacker walks away calm and contented. This is completely different from the nobility of those who speak to others face to face, serenely and frankly, out of genuine concern for their good.

:bump


Another way to express authentic love in Thomistic terms; to choose the good of the other. And what opposes this.

Also,
https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cu ... ction.html

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Good can exist without evil; whereas evil cannot exist without good.
The Summa Theologica - St. Thomas Aquinas


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