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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 am 
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This is a good thread. Thanks for all the posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:59 am 
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Yup. Definitely, invincible ignorance fallacy.

Below are a link and a lengthy quote -- which I offer as a thorough and, I believe objective, examination of the issue. Quotes and italics are mine. From a Fr. Dwight Longenecker (incidentally, a married priest).

https://dwightlongenecker.com/the-pachamama-problem/

Quote:
The Pachamama Problem

People still biting their nails over the Pachamama statues. So I took a moment to review the options to help folks think it through. The huge problem about the statues is the ambiguity that surrounded them. Nobody seemed quite sure what to say. There were lots of weasel words and double speak. Then the Pope came out on Friday and used the name “Pachamama” for them. But then his handlers bounced back and said, “He was just using that name because everybody would sort of know which statues he was referring to but he didn’t mean it really and remember it wasn’t an infallible statement anyway and so please stop making a fuss and go away…”

Right.

Well, here are the options for Pachamama as I see them. I’m happy to be corrected by people who know more about it than me.

1. The statues are simply indigenous craft items. Carved by local people, they’re the sort of cultural artifact or trinket you might pick up as a souvenir on vacation. They served as part of a cultural display for the Amazonian Catholics. The problem with this option is that the statues were given prominence in what looked like worship or veneration.


2. The statues were indigenous images which may have had pagan origins of some kind, but that’s not a big deal. Halloween pumpkins, the Christmas tree, Easter eggs–these things are also pagan in origin, but they’ve become a harmless part of a wider Christian culture. The pachamama images? Same thing. Except they didn’t treat them like that. They put the images up for some kind of ritual veneration or worship. You don’t do that with Christmas trees, Easter eggs and jack o lanterns.

3. The statues of the pregnant naked woman were Catholic pro-life images. They were symbols of motherhood, birth, pregnancy and the sanctity of life. In a larger way they were also symbols of the ecological life of the Amazonian region and the burgeoning life of that area of God’s creation. They were honored in the same way we might put up a poster of a happy smiling pregnant woman as a signal that we are pro life and pro family. If that was the case, why make them so prominent, light candles around them and so forth? Also, if it was a Catholic celebration where was Jesus and the crucifix or the tabernacle or monstrance with the consecrated host? Seems a bit off that one.


4. The statues were “Our Lady of the Amazon”. They were ethnic Amazonian images of the pregnant Virgin Mary – an Amazonian Our Lady of Guadalupe if you like. But the Vatican officials denied that the images were of the Blessed Virgin so we must rule that one out. It’s unfortunate because I think many Catholics who are concerned about the images would have accepted that explanation.

5. The statues were a symbol of life in a way greater than just a Catholic pro life symbol. They were symbols of the wider ecological movement, the push for being good stewards of creation and for affirming life in a broader, holistic sense. Without being a pagan earth goddess, they represented humanity’s relationship with the earth that gives us life by God’s grace. This would be okay I guess, but one then observes that the way the folks used the statues was more than that. They didn’t just have a display with the statues which was maybe surrounded with stuff about how wonderful life is and how we must all work together to not pollute and save the rainforest.

6. The statues were actually representations of the South American earth goddess Pachamama, but that’s okay because the people are Catholics and to be Catholic is universal and all that stuff and we affirm their culture, and we can adapt the earth mother goddess thing into Catholicism because it’s a big tent and anyway we all know witchcraft and black magic and the devil don’t really exist. It’s all just symbolic and their culture is something we just accept and we can add the earth mother goddess into Catholicism. What’s the problem?

7. The statues were symbols of life and fertility, but they weren’t Pachamama idols. They just represented earth and life and fertility the way Pachamama does. The prostrations, circle dancing, lighting of candles and making offerings looked like pagan practices, but they weren’t really. They were Catholics making offerings to the symbol of life in the same way but different as any Catholic might light a votive candle before an image, kneel down to pray and put money in the collection box for the candle. So it was all just Catholic, but Amazonian Catholic. Get used to it. It was no big deal.

8. The statues were actually idols representing the earth mother goddess Pachamama. She is worshipped with pagan rituals all across South America. The way they worship her is pagan. They present offerings to her, light candles, and make prayers to her asking for protection, prosperity, peace and good luck. The ritual in the Vatican garden and in St Maria Transpontina looked similar to the pagan practices of offering gifts to the earth mother. Catholics don’t do this stuff to life symbols that might be mistaken for pagan earth mother idols. If this is what they were doing, this is in direct contradiction to the Catholic faith and it should have been corrected and excluded from a Catholic church. If the ceremonies were not pagan in their intent and practice, then clarification and explanation should have been provided so the faithful who do not understand Amazonian culture would not be scandalized.

There may be other options I haven’t thought of, but I thought for the sake of my readers I’d lay out my thoughts on the matter.

Which option to I believe is the most complete explanation?

Eight.

However, it is somewhat more complicated than that, and the “full explanation” I suggest would have been something along the lines of Michael Brown’s excellent analysis here. The fact of the matter is, whenever Catholic missionaries have gone to indigenous peoples they have always sought anchor points within the native culture to connect and link with the gospel. This has included incorporating certain native customs and cultural aspects into the Catholic system and “baptizing” them. This process has always been controversial. Sometimes mistakes are made–the pagan culture is not purified as it should be or it is purified too much and exterminated completely.

In this instance the worship of Pachamama should be turned into the proper veneration for our true Mother–the Blessed Virgin. That’s why, if they had said, “These are indigenous images of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the two together was a portrayal of the Visitation” many Catholics who were concerned would have been mollified.

The complicating problem is that the whole affair was handled so badly. JD Flynn explains the fiasco here. It overshadowed the proceedings of the synod, scandalized the faithful, smeared the synod fathers and caused further suspicion, confusion and unrest among many faithful Catholics. It was ham fisted and reveals the tin eared incompetence that prevails in the Vatican at this time. Part of this incompetence is the sad fact that the Vatican communications folks work only with the established journalism insiders. They dismiss the power of social media as if it is unreal.

They should realize that the bloggers, tweeters, YouTubers and website writers have a huge global audience and they influence that audience in powerful ways. It is easy to dismiss the rabble rousers, cranks and extremists as crazy uncles, but those crazy uncles have lots of followers and fans. A few years ago the Vatican hosted a symposium for bloggers. It was a helpful step. They should do it again, but make it an even bigger opportunity for dialogue.

Now that the synod is all over we must read the full document that has come from it with objectivity and an open mind, praying for discernment and guidance for the Holy Father as he makes some decisions. We should also take the trouble to learn more about the church in Latin America, the challenges our brothers and sisters there face, and realize that our church and culture are facing a huge transition right now. ...


Then, from Wiki:

Quote:
Pachamama is a goddess revered by the indigenous people of the Andes. She is also known as the earth/time mother. In Inca mythology, Pachamama is a fertility goddess who presides over planting and harvesting, embodies the mountains, and causes earthquakes. She is also an ever-present and independent deity who has her own self-sufficient and creative power to sustain life on this earth. Her shrines are hallowed rocks, or the boles of legendary trees, and her artists envision her as an adult female bearing harvests of potatoes and coca leaves. The four cosmological Quechua principles – Water, Earth, Sun, and Moon – claim Pachamama as their prime origin. Priests sacrifice llamas, cuy (guinea pigs), and elaborate, miniature, burned garments to her. Pachamama is the mother of Inti the sun God and Mama Killa the moon goddess. Pachamama is said to also be the wife of Inti, her son.

In pre-Hispanic culture, Pachamama was often a cruel goddess eager to collect her sacrifices. After the conquest by Spain, conversion to Roman Catholicism took place and the figure of the Virgin Mary was equated with that of the Pachamama for many of the indigenous people.

As Andean cultures form modern nations, Pachamama remains benevolent, giving, and a local name for Mother Nature. Thus, many in South America believe that problems arise when people take too much from nature because they are taking too much from Pachamama.


Anyhow, thank you for the opportunity for me to research this issue. And, rather than conclude that the scandal in the Vatican is much ado, I conclude that, whatever his belief and motivation, Francis actively, by simply being there, participated in pagan worship. Then, he compounded his error by bringing pagan idols into a Church. He further compounded his inexplicable behavior by criticizing several of the Faithful who performed their Christian duty by removing the idols. And, if that wasn't enough, he apologized to pagans for acts of faithful Christians.

But, none of that should be confusing to one who will not be confused.


Last edited by Highlander on Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:22 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
Well, I'm glad that's settled.

You're sure you're not CoE?


See my post in the Lyceum "My life has been transformed since...".


A positive thing I can look to in this, and like, "discussions", is an education in logical fallacies. In this case, the invincible ignorance fallacy. And, like Sheldon, sarcasm is oft not perceived. Or, TBF, perhaps, ignored.

Having once been a member of our version of the CoE, your general position is, in parts, indistinguishable from that thing that resembled a Church and which contained many priest shaped objects. And the moths ... not to forget the moths.

HST, I applaud and am cheered by your transformation.


I perceive that the lessons in the use of figures of speech have taken and survived.


Down through the ages. I always profited by learning from you. In one case, by one question. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:28 pm 
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And so, continuing to stir the pot proves nothing. According to the Vatican, now that the Synod document, which is not magisterial, is in, Pope Francis will issue a related document in the Spring.

As a professional researcher who studies media, the internet, while basically good, poses problems not seen in pre-internet days. In the past, news and news articles were screened for bias. Social media allows for totally unscreened, biased and unsourced material to appear rapidly. This 'influence' should be seen from that standpoint. The fact that a few can seem like the many is an illusion that, again, can be bolstered by a few. One example: there are people who are paid money to pose as average folks to spread any kind of message. That is why personal contact and personal engagement will continue to exist for all kinds of research, ranging from politics to sales.

In this case, words like "pagan worship" can be a misinterpretation or a careful choice of words. As mundane as it sounds, researchers have to be able to tell the difference between factual information and emotional assumptions. That the internet can be misused in this way should be considered.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
And so, continuing to stir the pot proves nothing. According to the Vatican, now that the Synod document, which is not magisterial, is in, Pope Francis will issue a related document in the Spring.

As a professional researcher who studies media, the internet, while basically good, poses problems not seen in pre-internet days. In the past, news and news articles were screened for bias. Social media allows for totally unscreened, biased and unsourced material to appear rapidly. This 'influence' should be seen from that standpoint. The fact that a few can seem like the many is an illusion that, again, can be bolstered by a few. One example: there are people who are paid money to pose as average folks to spread any kind of message. That is why personal contact and personal engagement will continue to exist for all kinds of research, ranging from politics to sales.

In this case, words like "pagan worship" can be a misinterpretation or a careful choice of words. As mundane as it sounds, researchers have to be able to tell the difference between factual information and emotional assumptions. That the internet can be misused in this way should be considered.


Well, some researchers do. And some don't.

Some screen for bias. And some ensure that bias is properly emphasized. For the greater good. So, I offer an alternative sentence:

Another example: there are people who are paid money to pose as reporters to spread any kind of message.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:45 pm 
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That's right. When I need to contact an expert, I call that person on the phone. My list of professional contacts exists based on that minimum level of communications. As a friend told his daughter after she excitedly told him about her social media friends: "Have you met any of these people?" No. "Have you spoken to any of them on the phone?" No. "Then how are they your friends?"


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Puh-leeze. I eschew anger-p0rn sites, and I pointed out, wayyyyy back at the beginning of this thread, that the sites the OP was referencing are not reliable. But there are places (e.g., National Catholic Register) that are not into pot-stirring and that did find the pagan/idolatrous-appearing activities at the Synod disturbing. You can't just sweep the whole thing under the rug as media bias.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Do you think EWTN is a liberal l, anti-Catholic channel? The commentary on EWTN was EXTREMELY harsh and negative. I have not seen anyone defend what happened other than liberal multicultural types, eg I would be very surprised if Hand Kung didn't applaud it.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:12 pm 
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From the National Catholic Register:

Father Giacomo Costa, a communications official for the Amazon synod, said Oct. 21 the carved figure represents life in the Amazon in the same way a “water bottle” or “parrots” represent life in the region.

Focus on the statues, and the gesture of throwing them into the Tiber river, “doesn’t make sense,” Costa said.

The priest added that, “really, however, it is never constructive to steal an object.”

The controversial image was part of a tree-planting ceremony in the Vatican Oct. 4 and an Amazonian Via Crucis Oct. 19. The same figure has been present in the vicinity of the Vatican at various events happening during the synod, under the “Casa Comun” initiative, many of which have taken place at the Church of Santa Maria in Traspontina.

The Synod of Bishops on the Pan-Amazon Region is a meeting on the life and ministry of the Church in the Amazon. It is taking place at the Vatican through Oct. 27.

In a separate event, a small group of people supporting an alleged Marian visionary in Texas were also present outside the Church of Santa Maria in Traspontina Oct. 21, protesting the Amazon synod. Four people stood outside the church, two of whom held signs with “the synod is heretical” written in English, Italian and Latin.

The group handed out small slips of paper to passersby with the text: “Christ and Mary have come with new words and warnings The Amazon synod is heretical. Do not miss the signs.”

Both the signs and the slips of paper pointed people to visit the website of a group supporting an alleged Marian apparition, which supporters call “Our Lady Mystical Rose of Argyle.” The Bishop Michael Olson of Fort Worth, Texas, said in August the alleged apparitions are not real and released video evidence of the alleged visionary hiding a rose she later claims to have been manifested by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Supporters of the alleged apparitions say that Satan is trying to discredit their visions.

The protesters, among them the alleged visionary, were present outside Santa Maria in Traspontina at around 1pm Oct. 21, but by 3pm were no longer seen there.

Full article: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/am ... iber-river


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:36 pm 
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https://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=70267


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Thank you. I have a lot of respect for Father Pacwa. I believe he and others are sincere. Looking at what he said along with statements in the NCR article, I await just the truth. Did worship happen? Are these idols like 'water bottles'? I'll accept whatever true statements are made.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:06 am 
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Amon98 wrote:
Thank you. I have a lot of respect for Father Pacwa. I believe he and others are sincere. Looking at what he said along with statements in the NCR article, I await just the truth. Did worship happen? Are these idols like 'water bottles'? I'll accept whatever true statements are made.


In case you didn't watch this, Fr Pacqua talks about the Pachamama

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHCxjaWUZTg


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:06 am 
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That video is included in the article I linked.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:30 am 
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There is a current in the various discussions and POVs of the Pachamama issue that I find both illuminating and disturbing. That current, now current (sorry, but the opportunity was too tempting, much like a ripe currant) in the post-Modern West, is that traditional institutions either must or should accommodate, through tolerance or compromise or reparation or some other forcing mechanism, the practices and beliefs and actions and transgressions of los pobres de la tierra. And that if, the institution does not accommodate, then it is anathema and must be purified or cast out or transformed or purged. Thus spake the awoken elites.

So, we see Swedish cites and neighborhoods of Paris transformed into an Arabic souk, complete with de facto sharia law and absence of national governance and law enforcement. We see Western universities resurrect the Parisian mob, sans-culottes composed of 18-20 year old children guided by academic revolutionary bourgeoisie, reveling in an virtual reign of terror. We are lectured by a child on how she thinks the world should be changed to fit her childish demands ... while the audience she is eviscerating applauds.

And we see pagan idols apparently being worshiped in the presence of the Catholic Pope.

What next in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:55 am 
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gherkinism?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:18 pm 
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I read (somewhere) that Pope Francis actually called the statue "Pachamama".


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:07 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
gherkinism?


Heresy or Divine Revelation?

You only get to pick one.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
gherkinism?



Gasp... shudder... no.... not THAt.


:)


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
There is a current in the various discussions and POVs of the Pachamama issue that I find both illuminating and disturbing. That current, now current (sorry, but the opportunity was too tempting, much like a ripe currant) in the post-Modern West, is that traditional institutions either must or should accommodate, through tolerance or compromise or reparation or some other forcing mechanism, the practices and beliefs and actions and transgressions of los pobres de la tierra. And that if, the institution does not accommodate, then it is anathema and must be purified or cast out or transformed or purged. Thus spake the awoken elites.

So, we see Swedish cites and neighborhoods of Paris transformed into an Arabic souk, complete with de facto sharia law and absence of national governance and law enforcement. We see Western universities resurrect the Parisian mob, sans-culottes composed of 18-20 year old children guided by academic revolutionary bourgeoisie, reveling in an virtual reign of terror. We are lectured by a child on how she thinks the world should be changed to fit her childish demands ... while the audience she is eviscerating applauds.

And we see pagan idols apparently being worshiped in the presence of the Catholic Pope.

What next in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?





Those who hate the Church and who have too much time and money, like to see the world burn. Or failing that, thrown into chaos according to whim. I seem to recall a Roman emperor watching Rome burn while playing his fiddle. Too many billionaires and not enough common sense. The Church which holds the truth is a too tempting target for those who enjoy playing "What is truth?" games.

Time to admit that the truth is the truth. Regarding this incident(s) of alleged "worship," always remember who guards His Bride.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:49 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
a demonic pagan diety... similar to the ones that Solomon brought in at the last part of his reign to placate his wives.


I missed this initially. A very interesting insight. And parallel.


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