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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:20 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Instead of assuming anything, contact Pope Francis. I mean, just give it a try.


Do you honestly think that he would get a personal response from Pope Francis?


From cruxnow.com

https://cruxnow.com/church/2016/01/noto ... e-francis/

“Although it’s only being discussed now, the papal call to Maso actually occurred in 2013, so it could have been among the first in a string of almost endless, and generally unpublicized, attempts by Francis to answer those who write to share their pain, to ask for forgiveness, and to express doubts.”


I don't believe I asked you.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:48 pm 
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One could also wonder what "express doubts" means. Perhaps it is people who express doubts about God rather than the prudence or meaning of papal actions.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:56 am 
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Amon98 wrote:
Instead of assuming anything, contact Pope Francis. I mean, just give it a try.

I wonder if anyone has ever mentioned the Dubia to you. Has this ever been brought up for you before? Asking out of pure curiosity. This is absolutely not a sarcastic post. :fyi:

As I mentioned in an earlier post elsewhere, I have direct experience with contacting Pope Francis. Nothing doing. More, I know many other people who have done so. These are people who merit an answer. (Everyone equally merits an answer at the level of equal human dignity. But what I mean here is that these are prominent and respected Catholic intellectuals who have publicly asked for clarification. And been completely ignored by the Pope and savaged by his lackeys.) Here are a couple of examples.

https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/ ... e-francis/
https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/ ... -laetitia/

You need to stop pretending that presenting our concerns to Pope Francis is some kind of reasonable strategy...as though if only we could direct his attention to the confusion he is so eagerly spreading, he'd mend his ways. It's just not true.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:36 am 
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Thank you for those links. So, again, the Church is facing what it already faced in 1967 during the so-called Sexual Revolution. A time when preachers entered our neighborhoods and told us, "You know you want to have sex with your girlfriend." The impossibility of celibacy. Pope Paul VI had to publish Sacerdotalis Caelibatus in 1967. Why? Because some within the Church were saying celibacy was impossible. Then, in 1968, Humanae Vitae, on the regulation of birth. Why? Because total strangers were in our neighborhoods telling us immoral sexual activity was OK. Pope Paul VI had to remind the faithful of the Church's unchanged teaching: do not use artificial birth control, over the objections of his advisors who urged a loosening of restrictions. But within 24 hours after publication, an event occurred which was described as unprecedented in the history of the Church. Some Catholic theologians, going far beyond their authority, took out a full page ad in the New York Times to tell Catholics and all reading that artificial birth control can be used by married couples in some circumstances.

In the 1970s, as described by a religious, "Things went nuts in seminaries." Prospective priests were taught Humanae Vitae but they were also told a falsehood: that the Church would change her teaching about artificial birth control. What happened? When they became priests and parishioners asked about it, they told them it was a "personal conscience matter." Later, a pledge was introduced, and priests were required to give their assent to Humanae Vitae:

https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/librar ... edge-12079

And again, the very predictable secular media, in its constant obsession which started after the Sexual Revolution is quoting certain people in the Church to promote what it, not God, wants: a deformed Church because it's too hard to live a life that was lived. By standards that were followed. Of course, not by all, but more in conformance to the spirit and letter of the law. In the 1950s, the average number of kids was 2 not 10. And how was that possible? Where man fails, the grace of God provides.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:31 pm 
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:scratch: Except in the times you're speaking of, the Pope clearly upheld the Catholic Faith. The current pope refuses to do so on a wide variety of topics (such as communion for those living in adultery), and regularly teaches things that are at best confusing (that the death penalty is "unacceptable"). The problem with Francis is not the secular media. It is Francis.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:15 pm 
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In your view, what should be done?


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:24 pm 
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It wasn't those outside the Church that demanded change; that's pretty much a constant. It was, and is, those inside the Church that demand change that are the enemy. Both in the clergy and in the pews.

I hold that the majority of those in the pews demanding change are broadcasting, "I ignore this teaching and I violate that Doctrine, and I would feel so much better if you do too. And even better if the Church changes to make it all right."

I saw it happen in another venue and the result, predictable, was destroying the village in order to save it.


Last edited by Highlander on Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:25 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
In your view, what should be done?


If the Popes detractors are correct and the Pope affirms they are, then ... a new Pope.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
It wasn't those outside the Church that demanded change; that's pretty much a constant. It was, and is, those inside the Church that demand change that are the enemy. Both in the clergy and in the pews.

I hold that the majority of those in the pews demanding change are broadcasting, "I ignore this teaching and I violate that Doctrine, and I would feel so much better if you do to. And even better if the Church changes to make it all right."d

I saw it happen in another venue and the result, predictable, was destroying the village in order to save it.



That was the message I heard in the late 1960s. And let's be specific. The word "change" is not at issue. False preachers were trying to give us their permission to live the way they lived. To want what they wanted. And that was sex with anybody. The fruit of that? Abortion, Contraception, and the created out of thin air, No-Fault Divorce. The Church told people about divorce and how it worked, and about annulments. What do I hear from the divorced and remarried, "I finally got the person I want." And who turned sex into "one night stands"? When did dating and forming real relationships end?

And this spread to all. Catholics and non-Catholics.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
In your view, what should be done?

Prayer. Fasting. Almsgiving.

Not pretending that he's not a complete disaster.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:12 pm 
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Based on this most recent incident with the idol (which probably represents a demonic pagan diety... similar to the ones that Solomon brought in at the last part of his reign to placate his wives) I see no substantive difference between Pope Francis and Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden. Cafeteria Catholics. Problem is that the current Pope has figured out that nothing can be done to stop his seeming, passive aggressive personality. There are no mechanisms and too many moving parts. Like the sex scandal but without the advantage of a secular legal system in counterpoint. The whole system seems to have painted itself into a corner.


Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:24 pm 
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What? Or to put it another way, What? I find that post to be highly inappropriate. The Church should never, ever be compared to political goings-on. And adding/mixing more confusion into this is not helpful. So the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has no say? Assuming is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
What? Or to put it another way, What? I find that post to be highly inappropriate. The Church should never, ever be compared to political goings-on. And adding/mixing more confusion into this is not helpful. So the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has no say? Assuming is not good.


Perhaps you are confused. I'm not.

I do think Pope Francis would have a dickens of a time defending against the accusation of premeditated confusion though ... :wink:

The current Pope seems to have no qualms expressing his personal political opinion at will...
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/pope-s ... p-37028807

That said:
Politics has nothing to do with my comment. The two individuals I mentioned are prominent cafeteria Catholics... Thats all. Its common knowledge. Joe Biden was refused Communion because of his blatant rejection of a child's right to be born alive. CC's occupy every walk of life; hence Ireland's legalization of abortion... and now seemingly, the Pope is selecting from the cafeteria. Pope or not, I would not want to have to defend worshipping an idol on judgement day.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:20 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The whole system seems to have painted itself into a corner.

Whatever the merits of anything else you had to say, this bit is totally without foundation.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
It wasn't those outside the Church that demanded change; that's pretty much a constant. It was, and is, those inside the Church that demand change that are the enemy. Both in the clergy and in the pews.

I hold that the majority of those in the pews demanding change are broadcasting, "I ignore this teaching and I violate that Doctrine, and I would feel so much better if you do to. And even better if the Church changes to make it all right."

I saw it happen in another venue and the result, predictable, was destroying the village in order to save it.



I don't think was saved. It burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. In a cloud of wax-moths and oddities.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:25 pm 
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But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get, son, the strongest Church in all of England.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:27 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The whole system seems to have painted itself into a corner.

Whatever the merits of anything else you had to say, this bit is totally without foundation.


My mind was focused specifically on the topic of Papal actions and possible reactions/ remedies.
I was dovetailing off of your statement:
"Not pretending that he's not a complete disaster."


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get, son, the strongest Church in all of England.



Still going to have the wax-moths and oddities, though.

And it's still in a swamp.


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
What? Or to put it another way, What? I find that post to be highly inappropriate. The Church should never, ever be compared to political goings-on. And adding/mixing more confusion into this is not helpful. So the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has no say? Assuming is not good.


Again.... where is our pearl-clutching emoticon?!???!??

The Prefect for the CDF is a prominent position.... so prominent, in fact, that I can recall the likes of Ottaviani, Seper, Ratzinger, Levada, and Mueller...

.... Never heard of Ferrer, who's been in the position since 2017. I actually had to look it up.

You honestly think the PCDF has a legit voice under this current papcy?

[EDIT: good grief.... and Ferrer is a Jesuit, too..... where's my 'shocked face' emoticon?]


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 Post subject: Re: Really struggling over Papal participation in pagan wors
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:13 pm 
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I believe that the vast majority of Catholics are like me, we understand that Pope Francis is definitely NOT promoting idolatry. If there was any real evidence that he was in favour of idolatry, it would be headline news all over the world. His accusers not only claim that he is promoting idolatry but they are also claiming that he is lying when he said there there was no intention of idolatry. So they think that he is somehow secretly trying to promote idolatry while publicly condemning idolatry. It's too crazy to believe. I believe the vast majority of Catholics, like me, understand that Pope Francis was simply being sensitive to Amazonian culture, and no harm was actually done.

In addition to the Pope haters who criticise Pope Francis for everything, it is only people who are very obsessive about the letter of the law, or excessively scrupulous or something, people with a particular type of mindset who focus on details rigidly, who are claiming that Pope Francis is guilty of idolatry, instead of understanding the spirit of what Pope Francis is doing, which the vast majority of Catholics understand. It's just not even an issue for the vast majority of people.

And as for the accusation that Pope Francis is causing confusion, look how much confusion Jesus caused! How many different denominations and sects of Christianity are there? All based on the words of Jesus!


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