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 Post subject: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:59 pm 
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I have read the Bible, the New Testament passages over and over (on top of hearing such at Mass on a nearly daily basis for many yrs)

so, I share this info with JWs whenever i come across them which lately is not very often 8-)

they seem very resistant to this teaching of Hell, which is not just a Catholic thing obviously. It is clear from scripture alone (but they don't go by sola scriptura) that there is a Hell and those who don't obey Jesus go there.

I usually quote Mt 25:31 where Jesus speaks of not just punishment but ETERNAL punishment for the sin of not caring about "the least of His people"

But the JWs still resist and worst of all, bring up scripture passages-- after neglecting to address the aforementioned one -- that they think proves there is no Hell.. :shock: but of course does not.. wish I could remember those ones but anyhow..

so has anyone out there convinced a JW that there is a Hell, that Jesus wouldn't have had to go through what He did if there was not and etc.... evangelizing this particular way on this particular topic is not my forte'


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:31 am 
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You won't convince them that way because:

1. Your argument does not work. The text says the flames are eternal, not that the torment in the flames is eternal. And more importantly,
2. As you note, JWs don't guy by SS. They hold the Watchtower to be the infallible interpreter of Scripture. Therefore, the very fact that you interpret the text differently than the Watchtower does means that you are wrong, not that they are. Such an argument would be exactly as effective as if I were to tell you that the Church is proved wrong by any particular Scripture. You would complain about my private interpretation and point to the authority of your Church. Same thing here.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:29 am 
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You are never going to convince a JW of anything


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:49 am 
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other than to get off your porch and off your lawn

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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:20 am 
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A little more thorough response than I offered before:, the only hope you ever have a convincing a JW of the error of their beliefs is to establish a real friendship with them and do it over a very long period of time. The friendship can't be for the purpose of converting them. People smell that miles away and the disingenuousness will only prove how "worldly" you are in the end. Within the intellectual part of the process, you have to realize that they're JW because they believe the Watchtower is the final and perfect prophet of God. That cannot be emphasized enough. You cannot contradict the Watchtower. The only thing you can do is encourage them to explore how the Watchtower contradicts itself (and it does, it a great many ways). If you don't undermine that central claim, that the Watchtower is the infallible interpreter of the Word of God, you have zero chance of making any headway with them. And even if you to lead them to question their central premise, you're still almost entirely out of luck because if they leave the organization, they'll be completely ostracized by their family and friends. They'll lose absolutely everything. That's part of what makes converting cultists so near impossible--the combination of the infallible interpreter plus the social stigma. If you have just one or the other, you can make real progress. No infallible interpreter? Then people are allowed to think for themselves, so evidence might mean something. Yes, they will be ostracized, but if the evidence is just that strong, then that's the price one pays for truth.

You want to change a JW's view on hell? Get the to leave the JWs and become a Christian (Catholic or whatever). And that's hard. Prayer, friendship, a little bit of knowledge about the history of their teaching, and above all, the Spirit of God. Shy of that, just plant a seed and move on. Nothing else you can do.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:06 am 
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Doom wrote:
You are never going to convince a JW of anything

laugh

I've noticed that

but we have to try. As Mother Teresa said, God doesn't call us to be successful but faithful

still, it is disturbing that they do not listen. I think it was St Faustina who said that most people in Hell disbelieved in Hell. I'm sure she is not the only saint who said that


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:14 am 
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theJack wrote:
A little more thorough response than I offered before:, the only hope you ever have a convincing a JW of the error of their beliefs is to establish a real friendship with them and do it over a very long period of time. The friendship can't be for the purpose of converting them. People smell that miles away and the disingenuousness will only prove how "worldly" you are in the end. Within the intellectual part of the process, you have to realize that they're JW because they believe the Watchtower is the final and perfect prophet of God. That cannot be emphasized enough. You cannot contradict the Watchtower. The only thing you can do is encourage them to explore how the Watchtower contradicts itself (and it does, it a great many ways). If you don't undermine that central claim, that the Watchtower is the infallible interpreter of the Word of God, you have zero chance of making any headway with them. And even if you to lead them to question their central premise, you're still almost entirely out of luck because if they leave the organization, they'll be completely ostracized by their family and friends. They'll lose absolutely everything. That's part of what makes converting cultists so near impossible--the combination of the infallible interpreter plus the social stigma. If you have just one or the other, you can make real progress. No infallible interpreter? Then people are allowed to think for themselves, so evidence might mean something. Yes, they will be ostracized, but if the evidence is just that strong, then that's the price one pays for truth.

i had forgotten about the ostracization aspect of the problem. But Jesus did say (not sure THEIR "bible" has this but Jesus said) that if we dont put Him first, we are not truly his follower. We can't let family ties and friendships lead us through life, understandable as that is..

The JWs are a cult since they do control their members.. and yet sometimes Catholics are accused of being controlled by the pope. In any case, the last one I talked to referred to the Bible, which was on one of thos Blackberries or whatever u call it (dont keep up with modern tech much) so I don't know which version it was but I mentioned that kind of thing, about how there are so many versions. I said I like the Douay Rheims because it is a word-for-word "translation" from original languages, those spoken by Jesus himself (although word4word actually means NO interpretation..). It was interesting how I was interrupted a lot but not when I talked about that..


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:52 pm 
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JWs always refer to the Bible. Their translation is called the New World Translation. Arguing about translations and the many myriads there are is only playing their game and is not helpful at all. Second, the term you are looking for to describe the DR is a "formal equivalent," which is popularly described as a "word for word" translation. The other major type of translation is called a dynamic equivalent, which is popularly described as a "thought for thought" translation. An example of that would be the NIV. The NWT (the JW Bible) is a formal equivalent like the DR. Third, it is actually not entirely clear that Jesus spoke the "original languages" of the Bible. I grant that there are a few people who argue that Jesus spoke Greek, and I have little doubt He was able to do so since He was raised in Galilee, which historically had a lot of commerce with the non-Jewish world. As such, both Roman and Latin would have been common there. But Jesus was also preaching regularly to Jewish people throughout Israel, and they would have spoken Aramaic. Again, some argue that Jesus would have preached in Hebrew, because even in the first century, religious services were conducted in Hebrew. But it's also very clear from the historical evidence that the common language of the day was Aramaic, not Hebrew. The point is that, in all likelihood, Jesus probably preached and taught in Aramaic and was translated by the Gospel writers into Greek when they wrote their texts. Therefore, even the "original languages" do not record "those words spoken by Jesus Himself"). Lastly, a word for word or formal equivalent decidedly does NOT mean "NO interpretation." To take only one example, John 6:47b says, in Greek (simplified transliteration to English, because I assume you don't read Greek):

Pas ho pisteuon echei zoen aionion [en me]

Here is your vocabulary:

Pas - Every / All
ho - definite article, often "the"
pisteuon - believer
echei - he/she/it has
zoen - life
aionion - eternal/everlasting

So a "word for word" translation might be, "every the believer has life eternal."

But no one would translate it that way. In the first place, "ho pisteuon", in that particular participial construction, means something like "the one who believes". So you could say, "Every one who believes . . ." But notice now we've turned the participle pisteuon into a verb. Moreover, we should ask if "believes" properly catches the nuances of pisteuon. Maybe "everyone who trusts" or "all the faithful" would be better translations. That requires some interpretation! And still again, the participle pisteuon is in the present tense. So the translator has to decide the syntactical classification, which is NOT required by the grammar. To take only two (of more than ten) possibilities, is it a gnomic present or a continual present? If the former, "Everyone who believes" or "Every believer" might be appropriate; indeed, event "Anyone who has believed" could represent the same idea! But if it is a continuous present, you'd need something like, "Everyone who is in the act of believing," or "Everyone who continually believes." These are all interpretive decisions the formal-equivalent translator has to make. And all this is before you ask yourself what the word itself means in this particular context, because in some contexts, a word means one thing, and in another context, the exact same word means something else (because words have semantic domain). Lastly, translators and exegetes have only in the past decade or so really started grasping with the pragmatic impact of words, whereas historically they've been concerned only about their denotative value. To take a real life example, I have a new born son. Suppose he refuses to take his nap (like right now) and is fighting sleep, screaming his head off. My wife looks at me and says, "He is your son!" Each of one those words could be easily translated into another language. But is the meaning of that sentence really found in the direct translation of the words, or is she saying something beyond what the words actually denote? The pragmatic impact of the words is that, in some sense relevant to the current situation (and her emotional reaction to it), he is like me. So how much of THAT should a translator try to bring across in the text--and there are many examples I could give where such are highly relevant!

Bottom line: translation isn't easy, and it's not as simple as "here's a word for word translation of what Jesus literally said!" It just doesn't work that way, and I would advise you when doing any kind of apologetics with anyone, JW or otherwise, not to try to make that a centerpiece of your argument.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:55 pm 
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And if you ever say, "The aorist always indicates completed action enduring into the present," I will hunt you down.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
And if you ever say, "The aorist always indicates completed action enduring into the present," I will hunt you down.

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ftfy 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Spelling not being one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
And if you ever say, "The aorist always indicates completed action enduring into the present," I will hunt you down.


The even more general statement 'if you ever say grammar rule A implies grammar rule B' you are always wrong, regardless of what grammar rules A and B are and regardless of what language you are talking about. No language on the face of the Earth (except perhaps for invented languages that no one ever speaks like Esperanto) has even a single grammar rule that allows absolutely no exceptions.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:21 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
And if you ever say, "The aorist always indicates completed action enduring into the present," I will hunt you down.


Who's this aorist and why does he go about indicating stuff?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:50 pm 
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when I said that the Douay Rheims was word-for-word from the original languages, I was not speaking of Greek (still have not finished reading the post I now refer to but anyway--)

The Douay Rheims (admittedly, I failed to make this clear) is a word-4-word translation from the Latin version of the Bible which was itself a word4word from the original languages. It is my understanding that St Jerome translated from the original into Latin.. then came the DR, Latin to English


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:06 pm 
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https://youtu.be/2sRS1dwCotw


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:13 pm 
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the JW thing on Hell is SOOOO illogical, if nothing else

one time one of them quoted to me the psg: Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord

not a good one vis a vis the Hell issue

If all people do when they die is cease to exist.. after a life spent abusing people and possibly murdering people (abortion) and etc...

for one hting, it is like Big deal.. I often wish I could do that.. When life gets too problematic, we all would probably like to just cease to exist.

but the main point is that ceasing to exist is NO vengeance at all... no punishment, no justice. So you'd have to scratch that Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord psg OUT of the Bible..

it is the eternal nature of Hell that boggles my mind. I understand it but part of me kind of.. I don't know but even the eternal aspect of Hell is logical. When a person knowingly, willfully sins, he is, in a very real sense, eternally choosing against God. If he repents... well, he also has to do expiation. You cna't just say to God "OOPs! Please forgive me for cheating on my wife [or whatever]" and go about his business like nothing happened. No, he has committed a very seroius sin that has terrible, long-term consequences. He has to expiate the damage caused by that sin..


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:27 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
when I said that the Douay Rheims was word-for-word from the original languages, I was not speaking of Greek (still have not finished reading the post I now refer to but anyway--)

The Douay Rheims (admittedly, I failed to make this clear) is a word-4-word translation from the Latin version of the Bible which was itself a word4word from the original languages. It is my understanding that St Jerome translated from the original into Latin.. then came the DR, Latin to English

There is no such thing as a word-for-word translation.

The Greek verb tense system is not the same as the Latin verb tense system, and neither one is the same as the English tense system, and the Hebrew verb tense system is completely different from the others (and unrelated to them).

As for as words go, we can look at a simple one: the, the definite article. Greek has a word that does that, though it doesn't have an indefinite article (a/an). But even then, it's used in places where we wouldn't use it and not used in places where we would. This plays into the debate over one famous mistranslation in the JW official version, that of John 1:1. In any case, Latin has no definite article at all, so when you see one in the D/R, it's because the translator decided to put it there, not because it was word-for-word from the Latin.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of translation complexities, BTW.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:38 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
when I said that the Douay Rheims was word-for-word from the original languages, I was not speaking of Greek (still have not finished reading the post I now refer to but anyway--)

The Douay Rheims (admittedly, I failed to make this clear) is a word-4-word translation from the Latin version of the Bible which was itself a word4word from the original languages. It is my understanding that St Jerome translated from the original into Latin.. then came the DR, Latin to English

There is no such thing as a word-for-word translation.

The Greek verb tense system is not the same as the Latin verb tense system, and neither one is the same as the English tense system, and the Hebrew verb tense system is completely different from the others (and unrelated to them).

As for as words go, we can look at a simple one: the, the definite article. Greek has a word that does that, though it doesn't have an indefinite article (a/an). But even then, it's used in places where we wouldn't use it and not used in places where we would. This plays into the debate over one famous mistranslation in the JW official version, that of John 1:1. In any case, Latin has no definite article at all, so when you see one in the D/R, it's because the translator decided to put it there, not because it was word-for-word from the Latin.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of translation complexities, BTW.

i cannot comment. I have not studied Greek or any other language save English

But just to give you my visceral reaction, i find this post, well, it just sounds nit-picking. I am sure those worthy souls like St Jerome knew enough about such things to do a good job. In any case, from my best info the Douay Rheims is the best, most accurate version and that is the one I will continue to use. It sounds way more Catholic than the others do, for one...

(hope I don't have to learn Greek to be able to say that...)


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:47 pm 
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Nit picky details matter if you want to be accurate. And the D/R's advocates by and large don't understand what they're talking about when they say it's the most accurate. Use if you want, but don't try to persuade me it's the best in any reasonable sense.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Nit picky details matter if you want to be accurate. And the D/R's advocates by and large don't understand what they're talking about when they say it's the most accurate. Use if you want, but don't try to persuade me it's the best in any reasonable sense.

i normally don't try to persuade anyone of anything. If they are not persuaded by obvious truth, my words will not convince them (and no, I am not referring to you [not being persuaded by obvious truth])

I admitted that I am not equipped to comment since I don't know Greek or any other language.. although I do know a little Spanish

Political commentary removed by Admin. Please leave the politics in its own forum.


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