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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:18 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
By His Mercy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
By His Mercy wrote:
How about this passage?

Rev 14 (RSVCE)

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

-BHM

It's a big mistake to think those verses are meant to be understood literally, By His Mercy. Worshipping the beast and its image cannot make God angry, so angry that He will torment the worshipper "with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" because God is love and is unchanging and therefore cannot be made angry.

You should contemplate the meaning of your own username.


God cannot be made angry? What about the wrath of God?

Rom 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

Rom 5:9
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Rom 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

God will save some, not because they weren't fallen sinners, but by His grace and mercy. Salvation (from God's WRATH) is entirely a gift.

-BHM

James 1:17
Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, and I change not: and you the sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


So? These passages are true.

So is this. Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

No contradiction.

-BHM


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:32 pm 
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But there is a contradiction in believing that God is unchanging and that God can become angry. It can't be both.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.


Signum do you think you're a better judge of what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church than the Pope is?

If the Pope maintains that a particular teaching of his is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and you thought he was wrong, how would you know enough to judge that he is wrong? Do you know more about what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and what isn't in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, than the Pope knows?


I don't live in a vacuum, and I don't rely on my own opinions to inform me. I have a Catechism, and the Vatican website. I have access to people, on here, and in other places, who can answer my questions. But, you could have figured that out for yourself. Of course, since you know Pope Francis so well that you know his thoughts, you probably don't need catechisms or encyclicals to inform yourself.

It's easy to see that you're just trolling me and can't be taken seriously, so I won't be responding to any more of your ridiculous questions on this topic.

Pope Francis has access to all those sources too, Catechism, Vatican website, etc, and a lot more besides, so that's not an adequate answer to my question.

It's crazy to be accused of trolling for defending the Pope on a website called "Defenders of the Catholic Faith"! :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
But there is a contradiction in believing that God is unchanging and that God can become angry. It can't be both.


God detests evil. So when evil rears it's ugly head, He becomes angry. There is no contradiction. He hates and punishes sin, and for His own reasons, He elected some sinners to save although they didn't deserve it.

I don't see any change in God's nature here. He is both just (punishes sin) and merciful (sometimes decides to change sinners into righteous people even though they didn't deserve it...it's by grace, a gift).

-BHM


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:02 pm 
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God does not change. His relationship to created things can and does change.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:39 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.


Signum do you think you're a better judge of what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church than the Pope is?

If the Pope maintains that a particular teaching of his is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and you thought he was wrong, how would you know enough to judge that he is wrong? Do you know more about what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and what isn't in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, than the Pope knows?


I don't live in a vacuum, and I don't rely on my own opinions to inform me. I have a Catechism, and the Vatican website. I have access to people, on here, and in other places, who can answer my questions. But, you could have figured that out for yourself. Of course, since you know Pope Francis so well that you know his thoughts, you probably don't need catechisms or encyclicals to inform yourself.

It's easy to see that you're just trolling me and can't be taken seriously, so I won't be responding to any more of your ridiculous questions on this topic.

Pope Francis has access to all those sources too, Catechism, Vatican website, etc, and a lot more besides, so that's not an adequate answer to my question.


I guess you forgot what you asked me. It's a perfectly adequate answer. If you don't get it, that's your misfortune, not mine.

Quote:
It's crazy to be accused of trolling for defending the Pope on a website called "Defenders of the Catholic Faith"! :scratch:


What's crazy is you, a self-professed Catholic, defending the Pope's poor judgment of allowing the veneration of a pagan idol at a ceremony where he was in attendance. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:23 am 
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Artefacts were displayed at a ceremony where he was in attendance. That's very different from the claim that pagan idols were worshipped. The artefacts were not pagan idols, and they were displayed not worshipped.

Pope Francis was there, Signum. You weren't. So I trust his judgment more than I trust yours.

The reason your answer to my question was inadequate is as follows:

You claim that you are a "Catholic under the authority of the Pope" and you agreed with Obi that "under the authority of the Pope" means "recognize and submit to" the Pope.

But then you added "As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church" and doesn't err.

So when I asked you "Do you think you're a better judge of what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church than the Pope is?", you replied:
Signum Crucis wrote:
I don't live in a vacuum, and I don't rely on my own opinions to inform me. I have a Catechism, and the Vatican website. I have access to people, on here, and in other places, who can answer my questions.

But Pope Francis has access to all of those sources of information too, plus much much much more.

So, Signum, if you disagree with Pope Francis about what he believes are teachings which are in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, you must think that you are a better judge of what teachings are in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and what teachings are not, than the Pope is

That's the clear logical conclusion of what you yourself have said, Signum.

So why don't you just admit it, no need to be so humble about it, don't hide your light under a bushel. I think you should put it on a t-shirt:

"I'M MORE AUTHORITATIVE THAN THE POPE"

:salut:

Seriously, this is a very important point, it is not "trolling", it goes to the heart of the dispute Catholics like yourself have with the teachings of Pope Francis.

As you said elsewhere:
Signum Crucis wrote:
In case you wandered in here unaware, this is a discussion board, and this is a discussion.


You can't criticise liberal "cafeteria Catholics" for picking and choosing which teachings to "submit to" and then you yourself pick and choose which teachings to "submit to" - unless, of course, you think you are a better judge of what are correct Catholic teachings than the Pope is.

I'm certainly not. Do you honestly think you are?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:51 am 
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They were, in fact, pagan idols. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, who was a missionary in Peru and would know, says that the hierarchy was the God of the mountains, then the earth goddess (whose statues were used), then Jesus and Mary, in that order.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Denise Dee, your ridiculous, and most likely malicious, insistence on mis-characterizing my words and my beliefs on this topic has earned you a big fat IGNORE from me.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Artefacts were displayed at a ceremony where he was in attendance. That's very different from the claim that pagan idols were worshipped. The artefacts were not pagan idols, and they were displayed not worshipped.



https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/imag ... .jpg?w=760


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:40 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They were, in fact, pagan idols. Fr. Mitch Pacwa, who was a missionary in Peru and would know, says that the hierarchy was the God of the mountains, then the earth goddess (whose statues were used), then Jesus and Mary, in that order.


https://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/12224/ ... issionary-

'The wooden sculptures that were stolen from a church in Rome and thrown into the Tiber are not considered idols by the Amazonians, says a Spanish missionary who has been living with indigenous tribes in the rainforest for over a decade.

Genni Lloris is a consecrated member of the movement Verbum Dei and part of a team of missionaries that works with native tribes in the depths of the Amazon, in Brazil. It was this team that travelled to Rome to set up the display of Amazonian artefacts in the church of Santa Maria in Transpotina during the synod on the Amazon, in October...

...Genni Lloris rejects the idea that the Amazonians see the image as divine in any way. “That image represents Mother Earth, nothing more. Somebody interpreted it as representing a divinity, but it is only an icon of Mother Earth. These groups then started speaking of religious syncretism, but there was nothing of the sort, it was invented by them.” '


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