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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:12 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
That can't be what "under the authority of the Pope" means, because even an atheist could "recognize the head of the Catholic Church as being the Pope, the Bishop of the Church in Rome, Successor of Peter, Vicar of Christ."


Then what does it mean, Denise Dee?

Atheists don't believe in God or Church, so they can't recognize (acknowledge) the validity of either.

I recognize that the Archbishop of Canterbury is the senior bishop and principal leader of the Church of England, the head of the worldwide Anglican Communion and the diocesan bishop of the Diocese of Canterbury. But that doesn't mean that I'm under his authority or that I "recognise and submit" to him.

Atheists could also recognize that the Archbishop of Canterbury is the senior bishop and principal leader of the Church of England, the head of the worldwide Anglican Communion and the diocesan bishop of the Diocese of Canterbury. But that doesn't mean that those atheists are under his authority or that they "recognise and submit" to him.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:03 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.

Edited to ask Denise Dee a question: Do you believe we should blindly follow the Pope in everything he says and does?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:59 pm 
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I think it is important to note that all of Francis's errors are given in interviews and speeches, particularly when he throws away his speech and speaks off the cuff. Even the most extreme Ultramontanist never believed that such utterances are part of the papal magesterium.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.

Edited to ask Denise Dee a question: Do you believe we should blindly follow the Pope in everything he says and does?

No, I don't believe we should blindly follow the Pope in everything he says and does. I don't believe we should follow the Pope if we think he's wrong. I don't believe we should follow anyone if we think they're wrong. I don't believe we should blindly follow anyone in everything they say and do.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:31 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
No, I don't believe we should blindly follow the Pope in everything he says and does. I don't believe we should follow the Pope if we think he's wrong. I don't believe we should follow anyone if we think they're wrong. I don't believe we should blindly follow anyone in everything they say and do.


Do you believe that we should follow the teachings of the Catholic Church in all things, or only the ones we agree with?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:41 pm 
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Doom wrote:
I think it is important to note that all of Francis's errors are given in interviews and speeches, particularly when he throws away his speech and speaks off the cuff. Even the most extreme Ultramontanist never believed that such utterances are part of the papal magesterium.

You've forgotten about Pax already?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:02 am 
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now there's a blast from the past.... wonder how things are getting along with him and the mrs.... :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:24 am 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
No, I don't believe we should blindly follow the Pope in everything he says and does. I don't believe we should follow the Pope if we think he's wrong. I don't believe we should follow anyone if we think they're wrong. I don't believe we should blindly follow anyone in everything they say and do.


Do you believe that we should follow the teachings of the Catholic Church in all things, or only the ones we agree with?

I agree with the implication in your question that you could follow something without necessarily fully agreeing with it, but whether that would be morally acceptable to me depends on what the teaching is.

Signum, can you tell me exactly what you mean by "the teachings of the Catholic Church in all things"? Do you mean all the teachings in the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Do you also include all the daily teachings of Pope Francis over the last six years?

I don't agree that women cannot become priests, but that doesn't mean I don't follow that teaching. I'm not going to demand to become a Catholic priest, I have absolutely no desire to become a Catholic priest, and I'm not going to encourage any woman to demand to become a Catholic priest, and I don't agree with anyone such as the Irish singer, Sinead O'Connor who claims to have been ordained a female Catholic priest. So even though I don't agree with the teaching that women cannot be Catholic priests, it looks like we're stuck with that teaching, so I go along with it. There's no sense in which it can be said I don't follow that teaching, I just don't agree with it.

There are other teachings which at first sight I don't agree with but have learned that it's possible to interpret the teaching in a way that I agree with, such as the teaching that "outside the Church there is no salvation".

There are some teachings, not many, which I don't agree with and consequently wouldn't necessarily follow, such as the teaching that it is always sinful to use condoms regardless of the circumstances and consequences. But just because I wouldn't necessarily always follow that teaching doesn't mean I cannot practice my religion and continue to be inspired by Pope Francis to experience the joy of the gospel.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:37 am 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.

I don't think you can define "submit to" as meaning submit to as long as I agree with him but not when I think he's wrong!

If that's what "submit to" means, then liberal cafeteria Catholics also "submit to" the pope, except when they think he's wrong!


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:30 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.

I don't think you can define "submit to" as meaning submit to as long as I agree with him but not when I think he's wrong!

If that's what "submit to" means, then liberal cafeteria Catholics also "submit to" the pope, except when they think he's wrong!


That is not even remotely what I said.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:59 pm 
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You agree with the Pope when you believe he hasn't erred. Isn't that correct?

And when you believe he has erred, you think he's wrong. Isn't that also correct?

Hence you "submit to" the Pope only when you agree with him. And you don't submit to the Pope when you think he's wrong.

What part of that is "not even remotely" what you said?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:56 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
You agree with the Pope when you believe he hasn't erred. Isn't that correct?

And when you believe he has erred, you think he's wrong. Isn't that also correct?

Hence you "submit to" the Pope only when you agree with him. And you don't submit to the Pope when you think he's wrong.

What part of that is "not even remotely" what you said?


I, in no way under the sun, ever said I only submit to the Pope when I agree with him, and vice versa. You're just being disingenuous. But, you do that quite often, so I'm not surprised. I said, in other words, that I submit to the authority of the Pope as long as he is upholding his duty as the Vicar of Christ. If he (the Pope, no matter who he is) teaches something contrary to Church doctrine, I don't have to submit to his heresy or error. Paul rebuked Peter, didn't he?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:12 am 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
You agree with the Pope when you believe he hasn't erred. Isn't that correct?

And when you believe he has erred, you think he's wrong. Isn't that also correct?

Hence you "submit to" the Pope only when you agree with him. And you don't submit to the Pope when you think he's wrong.

What part of that is "not even remotely" what you said?


I, in no way under the sun, ever said I only submit to the Pope when I agree with him, and vice versa. You're just being disingenuous. But, you do that quite often, so I'm not surprised. I said, in other words, that I submit to the authority of the Pope as long as he is upholding his duty as the Vicar of Christ. If he (the Pope, no matter who he is) teaches something contrary to Church doctrine, I don't have to submit to his heresy or error. Paul rebuked Peter, didn't he?

I'm not being disingenuous, Signum. Logically it looks to me that you are saying that you submit to the Pope when you agree with him, but if you don't agree with him because you believe that he is not teaching in accordance with Catholic teaching, then you don't submit to him.

If I'm wrong, if I've made a wrong assumption or something else has misled me, you need to help me out so that I can understand where my logic has failed. Here are five statements, which I have numbered (1) to (5). If you think any of the five statements are incorrect, tell me which one(s).

(1) You only submit to the Pope when in your judgment he is teaching in accordance with Church teaching.

(2) If you agree with Church teaching (which I am assuming you believe you always do), then you agree with the Pope when he teaches in accordance with Church teaching.

(3) So you submit to the Pope when you agree with him that he is teaching in accordance with Church teaching.

(4) But if you don't agree with him that he is teaching in accordance with Church teaching, then you don't submit to him.

(5) If those four statements are correct, then it logically follows that you submit to the Pope when you agree with him and you don't submit to him when you don't agree with him.

Which, if any, of those five statements are incorrect, Signum?




(TheJack, if you happen to read this, I would trust your opinion as to whether my logic is correct or not, and I submit to your judgment in this matter! And your judgement too, Obi!)


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
You agree with the Pope when you believe he hasn't erred. Isn't that correct?

And when you believe he has erred, you think he's wrong. Isn't that also correct?

Hence you "submit to" the Pope only when you agree with him. And you don't submit to the Pope when you think he's wrong.

What part of that is "not even remotely" what you said?


I, in no way under the sun, ever said I only submit to the Pope when I agree with him, and vice versa. You're just being disingenuous. But, you do that quite often, so I'm not surprised. I said, in other words, that I submit to the authority of the Pope as long as he is upholding his duty as the Vicar of Christ. If he (the Pope, no matter who he is) teaches something contrary to Church doctrine, I don't have to submit to his heresy or error. Paul rebuked Peter, didn't he?

I'm not being disingenuous, Signum. Logically it looks to me that you are saying that you submit to the Pope when you agree with him, but if you don't agree with him because you believe that he is not teaching in accordance with Catholic teaching, then you don't submit to him.

If I'm wrong, if I've made a wrong assumption or something else has misled me, you need to help me out so that I can understand where my logic has failed. Here are five statements, which I have numbered (1) to (5). If you think any of the five statements are incorrect, tell me which one(s).

(1) You only submit to the Pope when in your judgment he is teaching in accordance with Church teaching.

(2) If you agree with Church teaching (which I am assuming you believe you always do), then you agree with the Pope when he teaches in accordance with Church teaching.

(3) So you submit to the Pope when you agree with him that he is teaching in accordance with Church teaching.

(4) But if you don't agree with him that he is teaching in accordance with Church teaching, then you don't submit to him.

(5) If those four statements are correct, then it logically follows that you submit to the Pope when you agree with him and you don't submit to him when you don't agree with him.

Which, if any, of those five statements are incorrect, Signum?




(TheJack, if you happen to read this, I would trust your opinion as to whether my logic is correct or not, and I submit to your judgment in this matter! And your judgement too, Obi!)


The Pope can't change the teachings of the Church, he can't go out in public and teach something that isn't true. That doesn't stop him from allowing stupid things to go on or saying stupid things when he's not teaching in an official capacity. If he allows priests to prostrate themselves before pagan idols, that isn't him telling us to worship or venerate idols. It's just him not taking charge of a situation and speaking out against it. I don't have to agree with his decision to rescue the idols, I don't have to agree that allowing prostrations before those idols was the right thing to do. Just because he allowed it without correcting it doesn't make it right. I know it isn't right, and I won't make excuses for him for not speaking out and correcting those involved.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:13 pm 
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preach sistah!!! :soap: :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:14 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
By His Mercy wrote:
How about this passage?

Rev 14 (RSVCE)

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

-BHM

It's a big mistake to think those verses are meant to be understood literally, By His Mercy. Worshipping the beast and its image cannot make God angry, so angry that He will torment the worshipper "with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" because God is love and is unchanging and therefore cannot be made angry.

You should contemplate the meaning of your own username.


God cannot be made angry? What about the wrath of God?

Rom 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

Rom 5:9
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Rom 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

God will save some, not because they weren't fallen sinners, but by His grace and mercy. Salvation (from God's WRATH) is entirely a gift.

-BHM


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:36 pm 
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By His Mercy wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
By His Mercy wrote:
How about this passage?

Rev 14 (RSVCE)

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

-BHM

It's a big mistake to think those verses are meant to be understood literally, By His Mercy. Worshipping the beast and its image cannot make God angry, so angry that He will torment the worshipper "with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" because God is love and is unchanging and therefore cannot be made angry.

You should contemplate the meaning of your own username.


God cannot be made angry? What about the wrath of God?

Rom 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

Rom 5:9
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Rom 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

God will save some, not because they weren't fallen sinners, but by His grace and mercy. Salvation (from God's WRATH) is entirely a gift.

-BHM

James 1:17
Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, and I change not: and you the sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:51 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.


Signum do you think you're a better judge of what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church than the Pope is?

If the Pope maintains that a particular teaching of his is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and you thought he was wrong, how would you know enough to judge that he is wrong? Do you know more about what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and what isn't in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, than the Pope knows?


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 Post subject: Re: what are ways to convince JWs there IS a Hell?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:11 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Recognize and submit to.


:yes:

But if we are happy to accept Obi's definition, "recognise and submit to", to which you have given a nod of approval, Signum, let me ask you, do you recognise and submit to Pope Francis?


As long as he upholds the unchangeable teachings of the Church and doesn't bring serious scandal to the Church, yes. But, if he errs, then I don't have to err as well, and risk my own salvation to follow him in his errors.


Signum do you think you're a better judge of what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church than the Pope is?

If the Pope maintains that a particular teaching of his is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and you thought he was wrong, how would you know enough to judge that he is wrong? Do you know more about what is in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, and what isn't in accordance with the unchangeable teachings of the Church, than the Pope knows?


I don't live in a vacuum, and I don't rely on my own opinions to inform me. I have a Catechism, and the Vatican website. I have access to people, on here, and in other places, who can answer my questions. But, you could have figured that out for yourself. Of course, since you know Pope Francis so well that you know his thoughts, you probably don't need catechisms or encyclicals to inform yourself.

It's easy to see that you're just trolling me and can't be taken seriously, so I won't be responding to any more of your ridiculous questions on this topic.


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