Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 20 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:37 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Perhaps this sounds too basic, but what makes Christianity good news for unbelievers?

Yes, the resurection is good news to us who know about hell, but unbelievers do not.

Our faith brings a lot of "bad news" for them too does it not? There is a hell, people go there, it is eternal etc.

How can you convince someone who has been blissfully ignorant of these hard teachings we've come to offer good news?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:41 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 80610
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
The good news is that there's a way out of all that stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:42 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The good news is that there's a way out of all that stuff.


But it's from the Gospel that people first learn that danger no?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:08 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4968
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
They may learn it definitely an as article of faith, but the general search for salvation in all world religions points to it being known more broadly. And even where there is a deep failure to understand the torments of Hell, there remains the understanding of death itself as the final enemy, and so the gospel's promise of eternal life is Good News in a universally understood way. The further implications regarding the ultimate rule of justice and righteousness and righteousness are other easily understood hopes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:36 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6105
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The good news is that there's a way out of all that stuff.


But it's from the Gospel that people first learn that danger no?
Yes, of course. Like any warning. Warning people about real problems is a good thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:02 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Closet Catholic wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The good news is that there's a way out of all that stuff.


But it's from the Gospel that people first learn that danger no?
Yes, of course. Like any warning. Warning people about real problems is a good thing.


Usually when some says there will be a terrible event x unless we do y, it is not received as good news by those previously ignorant of x


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:08 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 80610
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
"The Gospel is bad news before it is good news." -- attr. Frederick Buechner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:18 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"The Gospel is bad news before it is good news." -- attr. Frederick Buechner


So as this is an Apologetics thread; how do you preach that to people?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:26 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 373
Religion: Looking for answers
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"The Gospel is bad news before it is good news." -- attr. Frederick Buechner

It isn't good news if someone you love, who was an unbeliever in whatever religion it is that's required to get you to heaven, is dead. There's no way out of that one, if that's what you believe.

It seems to me that the people who most vehemently believe in eternal hell also believe that few will be saved, or at least few outside of the eternal hell believer's own religion, or wing of their own religion.

But hey-ho, at least I, in my true religion, will be saved, that wonderful thought outweighs all my worrying about the eternal suffering of others for whom it's too late. I'm alright theJack.

(Though of course I shouldn't be presumptuous, but it's better than being unable to sleep terrified that I've backed the wrong horse, maybe it's okay to be a little bit presumptuous.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:06 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6105
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The good news is that there's a way out of all that stuff.


But it's from the Gospel that people first learn that danger no?
Yes, of course. Like any warning. Warning people about real problems is a good thing.


Usually when some says there will be a terrible event x unless we do y, it is not received as good news by those previously ignorant of x
If I was ignorant of a block of stone around a corner, and was warned about it, so I didn't crash, I would consider the warning to be good news.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:36 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 80610
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"The Gospel is bad news before it is good news." -- attr. Frederick Buechner


So as this is an Apologetics thread; how do you preach that to people?

As theJack notes, most people are at least vaguely aware that something is wrong. We know what it is and we know how to fix it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:48 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 373
Religion: Looking for answers
I think most people nowadays are at least vaguely aware that something is wrong with the traditional doctrine of an infinitely merciful God unmercifully punishing people in an eternal hell. Hence the unease about it amongst even high ranking theologians in the Church today, not to mention all the people abandoning the faith because it doesn't make sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:30 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4886
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
I think most people nowadays are at least vaguely aware that something is wrong with the traditional doctrine of an infinitely merciful God unmercifully punishing people in an eternal hell. Hence the unease about it amongst even high ranking theologians in the Church today, not to mention all the people abandoning the faith because it doesn't make sense.



Define “most people.”


Because I can just as easily argue that most people are at least vaguely aware that the popular psychological idea that they are generally good is wrong.

I can easily argue that anyone who’s ever suffered from addiction, or anyone who has committed serious crime, can easily tell you how it is that hell is a reality, and how God’s infinite mercy is not a contradiction of that fact.

And I seriously doubt that you’ve done anything close to a serious survey of “high ranking theologians” or even people “abandoning the faith,” but rather you’re doing just the sort of editorializing that certain “journalists” engage in by prefacing your own personal subjective sentiment with “people are saying...” in order to give it some validity or weight that you know it doesn’t deserve.



I don’t know how simple it can be?

1) Eternal death is the default condition of the human soul.

2) God offers the free gift of salvation to anyone who will accept.

3) If you reject the gift of salvation unto your physical death, then by default you’ve accepted the alternative, eternal death.

If you have cancer, and because of pride and arrogance refuse to see a doctor, is it the doctor’s fault that you die, or is it yours?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:19 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 373
Religion: Looking for answers
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
As theJack notes, most people are at least vaguely aware that something is wrong.


Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Define “most people.”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:32 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 373
Religion: Looking for answers
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
If you have cancer, and because of pride and arrogance refuse to see a doctor, is it the doctor’s fault that you die, or is it yours?

Suppose someone you love has cancer and refuses to see a doctor, and starts to suffer, increasingly, do you (1) do your best to help enlighten her, do all you can to help relieve her suffering, and stand by her regardless, or (2) do you decide that because it's her own fault that she's suffering, she therefore deserves to suffer and you are therefore not even going to allow her any further opportunity to get the help she needs, and so you just abandon her and let her suffer?

I hope, like any compassionate person, you would choose the former and not the latter. How would you describe a person who would choose the latter?

Yet what you claim God does when people refuse to listen is much much much worse than a heartless person who believes a person with cancer who is suffering deserves to suffer because she refuses to listen to a doctor and does not deserve any opportunity to change her mind and therefore she should be abandoned and left to suffer more and more.

And at the same time you claim that God is infinitely merciful.

That's what doesn't make sense and I think most people think it doesn't make sense. I don't see how any rational person would think it makes sense when looked at without prejudice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:33 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4886
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
If you have cancer, and because of pride and arrogance refuse to see a doctor, is it the doctor’s fault that you die, or is it yours?

Suppose someone you love has cancer and refuses to see a doctor, and starts to suffer, increasingly, do you (1) do your best to help enlighten her, do all you can to help relieve her suffering, and stand by her regardless, or (2) do you decide that because it's her own fault that she's suffering, she therefore deserves to suffer and you are therefore not even going to allow her any further opportunity to get the help she needs, and so you just abandon her and let her suffer?

I hope, like any compassionate person, you would choose the former and not the latter. How would you describe a person who would choose the latter?

Yet what you claim God does when people refuse to listen is much much much worse than a heartless person who believes a person with cancer who is suffering deserves to suffer because she refuses to listen to a doctor and does not deserve any opportunity to change her mind and therefore she should be abandoned and left to suffer more and more.


No, that’s not “my” claim at all, that’s nothing but you persistently, and seemingly intentionally, misconstruing what I said and building a straw man around your false notions of what’s being said.

You’re also seemingly intentionally ignoring the whole episode of Christ’s life, passion, death, and Resurrection, where God does everything short of getting on His knees and beg you, me, and everyone to repent of their egotism and clamoring for self-will.

Yet, according to you, He’s not done enough. That for you to be satisfied in Him and to meet your ideal of “infinitely merciful” He’s supposed to destroy the freedom of the human will.

Quote:
And at the same time you claim that God is infinitely merciful.

That's what doesn't make sense and I think most people think it doesn't make sense. I don't see how any rational person would think it makes sense when looked at without prejudice.


Of course to someone possessed and imprisoned in their own egocentrism(not saying that you necessarily are, it’s just a general observation of modern culture) it’s not going to make sense because egocentric people are necessarily going to believe that they can have their cake and at the same time eat of it.

And given how the only consistent thing you’ve demonstrated that you’re capable of doing is misconstruing, misjudging, and strawmaning my argument and other people’s arguments, I think it’s safe to say that you’ve utterly exhausted any currency you might have had in judging something as being rational or not. To be able to judge something as rational would mean that you at least have some understanding of what’s actually being said, and you haven’t done that at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:02 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4886
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
As theJack notes, most people are at least vaguely aware that something is wrong.


Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Define “most people.”



Yeah, no. Your claim and his are of two totally different kinds and based on wholly different sets of premises.

It may or may not be obvious how the existence of hell is or isn’t compatible with God’s mercy.

It is in fact manifestly obvious that everyone knows, either implicitly or explicitly, that by their positive choices or passive omissions that they undermine themselves constantly and release untold amounts of evil, suffering, and malevolence into the world on a daily basis.

So theJack is in fact correct, and you are still sorely begging the question.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:04 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 4968
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
DD, have you read C. S. Lewis' Mere Christianity? If not, and if you prefer audiobooks, it's available on Youtube here. I think he does a great job addressing some of these sorts of questions (especially about people generally understanding something is wrong, the basis for that feeling, and some the logical implications of all that).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:25 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
Posts: 373
Religion: Looking for answers
Yes, I got it on Amazon after you and gherkin recommended it about a year ago, I gave it to a friend last November. I found it helpful but, like most people, I don't agree with everything CS Lewis says.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good News?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:44 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19169
Religion: Catholic
To the OP, I think there is a point to be made that the moral teachings of Jesus through the Bible and His Church aren't random. They are a reflection of what will truly make us happy in this world as well as the next. Our fallen natures are often attracted to things that ultimately bring us great unhappiness. While not giving in to our initial attraction may be initially unpleasant in the long run we will be better off.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 20 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to:  
cron