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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Journeyman
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Jack3 wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
Doom wrote:
Do you really think that saying that something is 'a stupid belief' is the kind of compelling argument that will lead anyone to change his mind?

it seems to work for Trump

:)

reporter asks question (wish I could remember it)

Trump says

Stupid question

laugh


You do not understand the point Doom is making. He is referring to persuading and convincing the other person. The said reporter did not, of the best of my knowledge, become a Trump supporter after the incident.


he wouldn't become a supporter no matter what.. case u havent noticed, liberals dont listen to anyone but liberals. Both sides can be like that but when one side says A and the other says No, B

only one is right, and maybe not even one, because maybe C is right.. but the Republicans .. not even a comparison there vis a vis truth, reality, etc... the liberals are illogical, have half baked ideas and just do so much damage to the US

they are literally dangerous


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:12 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Do you really think that saying that something is 'a stupid belief' is the kind of compelling argument that will lead anyone to change his mind?


:scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:35 am 
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GKC wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
that is what Luther said...

Source?

I'd say from a letter fragment , written to Melanchthon,addressing a number of points, the last being concerned with sinning and forgiveness. And if that's it, it's not fornication 20 times a day, it's kill or commit adultery thousands of times a day. Hyperbolic, that, as noted.

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin... It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

I found the larger fragment, written in 1521, HERE.* Luther may be contrasting what the "Lutherans" are doing with what the Catholic clergy in their area were putting forward as the position of the Church. For context, this letter was written about 20 years before The Council of Trent. In any event, I agree that the statement in question is hyperbole.

*I'm assuming that each paragraph is a separate fragment of the letter and may or may not be connected directly to what comes before or after it.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:47 am 
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TreeBeard wrote:
GKC wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
that is what Luther said...

Source?

I'd say from a letter fragment , written to Melanchthon,addressing a number of points, the last being concerned with sinning and forgiveness. And if that's it, it's not fornication 20 times a day, it's kill or commit adultery thousands of times a day. Hyperbolic, that, as noted.

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin... It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

I found the larger fragment, written in 1521, HERE.* Luther may be contrasting what the "Lutherans" are doing with what the Catholic clergy in their area were putting forward as the position of the Church. For context, this letter was written about 20 years before The Council of Trent. In any event, I agree that the statement in question is hyperbole.

*I'm assuming that each paragraph is a separate fragment of the letter and may or may not be connected directly to what comes before or after it.



That was my source too.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am 
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I'm still having trouble .....


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:29 am 
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Highlander wrote:
I'm still having trouble .....


Apparently, there were men in those days.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:32 pm 
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interesting book with words from Luther himself

The Facts About Luther

very eye opening for all those who think Luther was some kind of noble crusader. He was a very lawless, sinful person who tried to justify his sinfulness, I guess because he didn't feel he could overcome sin. Well, when you first start fighting sin, it can admittedly seem hard to give it up.. certain sins are addicting.. but if you really want to give it up, you can.

Jesus did say Go and sin no more

Luther said Go and keep sinning and you will still be saved and go to Heaven

how ironic that many Protestants say they go by the Bible.. and yet they believe all kinds of things that are NOT in the Bible.. like sola scriptura itself.. like sola fide

Where in the Bible does it say you can sin all you want after accepting Christ and still get to Heaven??

Logic was not a forte of Luther.. and not of Protestantism in general


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:01 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
interesting book with words from Luther himself

The Facts About Luther

very eye opening for all those who think Luther was some kind of noble crusader. He was a very lawless, sinful person who tried to justify his sinfulness, I guess because he didn't feel he could overcome sin. Well, when you first start fighting sin, it can admittedly seem hard to give it up.. certain sins are addicting.. but if you really want to give it up, you can.

Jesus did say Go and sin no more

Luther said Go and keep sinning and you will still be saved and go to Heaven

how ironic that many Protestants say they go by the Bible.. and yet they believe all kinds of things that are NOT in the Bible.. like sola scriptura itself.. like sola fide

Where in the Bible does it say you can sin all you want after accepting Christ and still get to Heaven??

Logic was not a forte of Luther.. and not of Protestantism in general


That would be Fr. O'Hare.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:26 pm 
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I studied Luther a bit.

I concluded that, early in life, he was a very troubled man who expected perfection in the Church. His justified impulse toward reform metamorphosed into a rejection of all who would not accept and implement his personal vision of the Church Temporal. His frustration moved to a further rejection of the Church Spiritual for much the same reason ... if it wasn't his theology, then must be rejected. Which allowed him full vent for destructive and vengeful activity

I see him as having an impulse to, in a sense, replace the Pope as the final arbiter in all things related to religion. And, once he had become a pawn in the hands of a certain German prince, his continued frustration turned him into a nasty, unhappy, bitter person.

Not at all admirable.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:32 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:



Luther said what he said

and you can't change what he said to fit some narrative because maybe you like the knucklehead the one who divided Christ's Church

he said many other VILE things and was constantly feeling that he would end up in Hell which I believe he did


I find it difficult to read your posts and come away with the impression that you are a completely honest person.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:38 pm 
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You know, I was just yelling at an anti-Catholic yahoo with a bullhorn for spouting nonsense. I am sorry to see a Catholic doing the same thing. And I don't mean Doom.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
I studied Luther a bit.

I concluded that, early in life, he was a very troubled man who expected perfection in the Church. His justified impulse toward reform metamorphosed into a rejection of all who would not accept and implement his personal vision of the Church Temporal. His frustration moved to a further rejection of the Church Spiritual for much the same reason ... if it wasn't his theology, then must be rejected. Which allowed him full vent for destructive and vengeful activity

I see him as having an impulse to, in a sense, replace the Pope as the final arbiter in all things related to religion. And, once he had become a pawn in the hands of a certain German prince, his continued frustration turned him into a nasty, unhappy, bitter person.

Not at all admirable.

it's diabolical IMO

in those days there was only ONE Christian Church, the Roman Catholic Church. And there were plenty of pagans and etc in the world, the point being that Luther didn't have the excuse people have today -- 60,000 different "churches" and some don't know which is the right one..

So it was pretty arrogant that he pitted himself against THE CHURCH

he was arrogant, rebellious and lawless... The Word describes the Antichrist as "the man of lawlessness"--someone who does not obey God's laws.

Now, admittedly some of God's laws are difficult to always adhere to... but if it were impossible to do so, Jesus would not have said Go and sin no more. He knew that with His help we could do it..


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Luther lived before 1054?


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Luther lived before 1054?

the Orthodox did not totally split from the Roman Catholic Church--not remotely what Luther did

with Luther, it was a total split

yes, he maintained some of the Catholic Church's teaching but his once saved always saved garbage was so out there that it was arch heresy and the "church" he called himself founding was NOT that at all.. Of course there is only ONE. Jesus establsihed only ONE


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:10 pm 
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They are in a state of formal schism.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Luther taught OSAS? I have seen Lutherans argue the point.

There is a very scholarly Lutheran who posts here occasionally. I have learnt from him before. Perhaps he may see this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:20 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Luther taught OSAS? I have seen Lutherans argue the point.

There is a very scholarly Lutheran who posts here occasionally. I have learnt from him before. Perhaps he may see this thread.

Funnily enough, he has already posted in this very thread and has already said that Luther didn't believe in OSAS.

viewtopic.php?p=2804282#p2804282 (*Assuming we're talking about the same Lutheran)


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:13 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
GKC wrote:
Luther taught OSAS? I have seen Lutherans argue the point.

There is a very scholarly Lutheran who posts here occasionally. I have learnt from him before. Perhaps he may see this thread.

Funnily enough, he has already posted in this very thread and has already said that Luther didn't believe in OSAS.

viewtopic.php?p=2804282#p2804282 (*Assuming we're talking about the same Lutheran)



Oh.


That's what I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:04 am 
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Yes, to say that Luther believed in OSAS is just ridiculous. And it shows that the one making the claim hasn't actually read anything that Luther said, or has only read excerpts taken out of context, found on critical websites.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:13 am 
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And just in case you, flyingaway, want me to point out where Luther didn’t hold to OSAS, I’m going to have to pass on that, as it is impossible for the simple reason that you cannot prove a negative. It is impossible for me to show where Luther didn’t write something. Furthermore, as you made the claim, you are the one who has to back it up. As the old saying goes; quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur, ‘what is asserted without reason or evidence may be denied or ignored without reason or evidence.’


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