Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 8   [ 152 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:43 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:44 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81129
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Are you affiliated with the Watchtower?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:49 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:59 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81129
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Thank you for the answer. Your positions are very close to theirs, as you apparently know.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:04 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:09 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8675
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
My knowledge of non-Catholic Christian churches is limited, but I always though that belief in the Trinity was a central tenant to all of them. Are you a member of one of these churches*?

1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members
2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members
3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members
4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members
7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members
12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members
13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members

*YEARBOOK OF AMERICAN AND CANADIAN CHURCHES


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:10 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:13 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:14 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8675
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
Thanks for the reply.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:24 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8675
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that those whom you trusted to teach about the doctrine appear to have done a poor job of it. This is understandable, because it is a difficult doctrine, and they are not alone in this.

The book I know of that does the best job of explaining the doctrine and (IIRC) explaining the verses you think speak against it, and explaining why it is not at all an unimportant optional belief, is Fr. Michael Gaitley's The One Thing is Three. You are missing something very important when you miss on the Trinity, and I encourage you to find the book and read it with an open mind.

Thanks for the tip! Only $15 on Amazon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:45 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5061
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
harmonicat wrote:
The Jack said,

Quote:
I'm not Catholic, and I deny that you are a Christian. I'm not terribly concerned what you "expect." If you say Jesus is not God, you are not a Christian. If you are a polytheist, you are not a Christian.

I have no problem calling myself a Catholic, but most of them don't like that I deny the Trinity doctrine. You can condemn me all you want and say I'm not in Christ but YOU don't have that authority. You've provided absolutely nothing to prove your point other than just "saying so." Maybe if you would take the time to confront the 6 points I raised instead of passing judgment it would make you appear more Christ-like. But instead you chose to pass judgment without one shred of evidence to prove your point.

Let me remind you that there are damnable and un-damnable heresies, and very few damnable ones. You may even be damning yourself for condemning me...

Mt. 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

The only requirement for salvation is that one believes in Jesus life, death, and resurrection. Where did Jesus or anyone say Jesus is God? And where does the bible say you must believe in a trinity or believe Jesus is God to be a Christian? I've found in the 45 years of being a Christian that professed CHRISTIANS love to condemn others (just like many evangelicals say Catholics are condemned) because by tearing others down they build themselves up. So before you condemn people maybe you should familiarize yourself with the basics of salvation and the judgment you may bring upon yourself for falsely accusing and condemning others.
Quote:
Your rejection of the Trinity will lead to one or the other; or, more likely, is based on your commitment to one of those two errors. In short, your problem is with what Jesus says about Himself (and what the rest of Scripture says about Him), not merely with a doctrine the Church has put forward at least in part to help her come to terms with those facts.

The trinity never existed until the doctrine emerged in 4TH century. If you can show me where our BIBLE says Jesus is God and equal to God more power to you, those verses do not exist. Show me what Jesus says about himself. Show me what the Prophets and Apostles say about Jesus that prove he is God the Father and equal to God the Father. If all you're going to do is condemn me then I, by scripture, can let them judge that you may not be a Christian.

The refutation of your six points is in the fact that if you deny the divinity of Christ, you are not a Christian, and that if you are a polytheist, you are not a Christian. As far as your take on the gospel, you are wrong. I affirm a faith alone gospel (contrary to the Catholic church), but faith does not constitute belief in a set of propositions regarding Jesus (i.e., that He lived, that He died, and that He rose again). John 3:16 (and many other verses) that salvation comes to those who place their faith "in Him." In other words, the object of faith is not a proposition but a Person. The Person in question is the incarnate Son of God. Regardless of when the doctrine of the Trinity was formalized as a doctrine to be believed, the divinity of Christ has been affirmed from the very beginning. If you deny that, you separate yourself from Him by denying who He is, for in doing so you deny that He is the Son of God. I have now doubt that you attribute to Him the title "Son of God," but the question is not what you mean by the term, but rather what Scripture means by the term. And, again, from the very beginning, that term has and must refer to His divinity. Deny that and you are not placing your faith in the Son of God as Scripture presents Him.

Once you accept the divinity of Christ, you'll find yourself recapitulating the first five hundred years of church history pretty quickly, and you'll find yourself compelled necessarily to affirm the Trinity. But that all starts with affirming the deity of Christ on the one hand and monotheism on the other. If you deny either of those, you aren't Christian. You, sadly, appear to deny both. You, then, have not placed your faith in Christ but merely have given intellectual assent to a set of propositions regarding something Christ did in life. I'd encourage you to repent in the biblical sense of the word--metanoia, to change your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:09 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:22 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5061
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
I'm not the one condemning you. You are condemning yourself by your own words. I don't expect you to respond the arguments and evidence presented to you in this thread. People like you tend to be far more interested in your own theology than in what Scripture actually says, such as the things I (and others) have already presented you. As it stands, your "arguments" reduce to "na-uh."

Again, your problem is that you deny the deity of Christ and even seem to deny monotheism. Both render you non-Christian. Faith in Christ is the requirement for salvation, where Christ is the object of faith, not intellectual assent in a series of propositions attributed to Him. In particular, you must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31). You the latter in particular in name only and deny it in substance, ergo, you do not believe the gospel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:01 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81129
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Can you tell us, in your own words, what you believe about Jesus? What's His relationship to the Father? Is He human? Divine? Both (and, if so, how)?

BTW, I agree with theJack's main thesis here: you are not a Christian because you believe in a fictional construct, not the real thing.

Luke 6:37 doesn't mean what you seem to think it means either, but that's for another time. But you might want to reread 1 John.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:19 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81129
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
TreeBeard wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that those whom you trusted to teach about the doctrine appear to have done a poor job of it. This is understandable, because it is a difficult doctrine, and they are not alone in this.

The book I know of that does the best job of explaining the doctrine and (IIRC) explaining the verses you think speak against it, and explaining why it is not at all an unimportant optional belief, is Fr. Michael Gaitley's The One Thing is Three. You are missing something very important when you miss on the Trinity, and I encourage you to find the book and read it with an open mind.

Thanks for the tip! Only $15 on Amazon.

It drove me nuts the first time I tried to read it because he thinks that "alright" is a real word. I'm glad I got over that and picked it back up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:25 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:40 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm
Posts: 34
Location: New Hampshire
Religion: Christian
sss


Last edited by harmonicat on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:41 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8874
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Harmonicat quoted
Quote:
Mt. 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


Later
 
Quote:
Your [sic] just full of slander, accusations, judge-mentalism, and condemnation. I don't think you know how to debate these things. Your better at getting under people's skin than you are confronting the issue...  Anybody can accuse others of anything, but don't build yourself up too much, you're liable to knock that chip off your shoulder.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Consubstantiality
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:47 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6140
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
harmonicat wrote:
My view is similar to all non Trinitarians. However, I will say Jesus is God (but that would take some explain too) but that God is greater.
So you're a polytheist, then, as Jack said. Or rather: you don't really understand the concept 'God,' and see God as alike to us, just 'greater.'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:47 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8874
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Quote:
My conclusion, then, about the doctrine of the Trinity is that it is an artificial construct ... It produces confusion rather than clarification; and while the problems with which it deals are real ones, the solutions it offers are not illuminating. It has posed for many Christians dark and mysterious statements, which are ultimately meaningless, because it does not sufficiently discriminate in its use of terms.” — (1958, pp. 148-149)

Why would anyone be a "dedicated Trinitarian" if they believe that the doctrine is an "artificial construct"?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 8   [ 152 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Jump to: