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 Post subject: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:05 pm 
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I recently posted about a Protestant friend who thinks he has prophetic gifts. Well, now same friend began "speaking in tongues". He offered to pray for me and began taking in what sounded like mumbling of giberish.
Can someone clarify what exactly is "speaking in tongues"? In NT there is an example of apostles speaking in tongues when each person in crowd heard their own language spoken. This doesn't seem to be the case here so can someone help me out? :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:25 pm 
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If you are trying to rationalize tongues - you have a difficult task before you.

Many people speak what they call tongues, and say things that sound like coka cola, coka cola (not really just an example!)

Some people can fake tongues! The reason why they fake it is because Tongues - or 'glossolalia' is viewed as a visible sign of the outpouring of The Holy Spirit.

True tongues is, however, speaking a mystery that is too deep for normal human words. On occasion, tongues are interpreted (they should be more often) and very rarely - they are translated - in that someone listening hears the message in their own language - as on the day of Pentecost.

Many Saints of the Church have spoken in tongues - or displayed other gifts - including levitation.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:45 pm 
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I've been in a Pentecostsal Church for the past 12 years and have heard lots of speaking in tongues. I can speak in tongues myself but tend not to a great deal. The reasons for this a complex so I won't go into it here.

My experience is that there are two types of tongues. One is not much more than gibberish, which is probably not a known language (but you never know), the other is a known, current language. I know 2 people who spoke perfect Arabic in tongues and had no idea what they were saying until an Arab in the room interpreted.

I have been in a prayer meeting when a woman spoke what sounded to me to be fluent Japanese. There was no way you could fake what was coming out of her mouth, it was very fast and the words had a very ordered structure to them and were at times quite complex.

The gibberish tongues appear to be more of a private language that a believer uses to disengage the mind and to help in opening up the spirit. It is an aid to spiritual connection rather than the speaking of revelation. In my experience, when someone speaks in a known language (foreign to them), it is spoken prophetically and for the purpose of revealing something from God to the individual or group that is present. They themselves may get the interpretation or someone else in the room may get it, but there should be an interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:57 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
I've been in a Pentecostsal Church for the past 12 years and have heard lots of speaking in tongues. I can speak in tongues myself but tend not to a great deal. The reasons for this a complex so I won't go into it here.

My experience is that there are two types of tongues. One is not much more than gibberish, which is probably not a known language (but you never know), the other is a known, current language. I know 2 people who spoke perfect Arabic in tongues and had no idea what they were saying until an Arab in the room interpreted.

I have been in a prayer meeting when a woman spoke what sounded to me to be fluent Japanese. There was no way you could fake what was coming out of her mouth, it was very fast and the words had a very ordered structure to them and were at times quite complex.

The gibberish tongues appear to be more of a private language that a believer uses to disengage the mind and to help in opening up the spirit. It is an aid to spiritual connection rather than the speaking of revelation. In my experience, when someone speaks in a known language (foreign to them), it is spoken prophetically and for the purpose of revealing something from God to the individual or group that is present. They themselves may get the interpretation or someone else in the room may get it, but there should be an interpretation.


Interesting. You said you are able to speak in tongues yourself? I'm curious to know how that came about and what tongue were you speaking when that occured.


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:27 pm 
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Innana wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
I've been in a Pentecostsal Church for the past 12 years and have heard lots of speaking in tongues. I can speak in tongues myself but tend not to a great deal. The reasons for this a complex so I won't go into it here.

My experience is that there are two types of tongues. One is not much more than gibberish, which is probably not a known language (but you never know), the other is a known, current language. I know 2 people who spoke perfect Arabic in tongues and had no idea what they were saying until an Arab in the room interpreted.

I have been in a prayer meeting when a woman spoke what sounded to me to be fluent Japanese. There was no way you could fake what was coming out of her mouth, it was very fast and the words had a very ordered structure to them and were at times quite complex.

The gibberish tongues appear to be more of a private language that a believer uses to disengage the mind and to help in opening up the spirit. It is an aid to spiritual connection rather than the speaking of revelation. In my experience, when someone speaks in a known language (foreign to them), it is spoken prophetically and for the purpose of revealing something from God to the individual or group that is present. They themselves may get the interpretation or someone else in the room may get it, but there should be an interpretation.


Interesting. You said you are able to speak in tongues yourself? I'm curious to know how that came about and what tongue were you speaking when that occured.
In Pentecostalism, there is the expectation that all can speak in tongues, even if it is the gibberish type. This does seem to clash with scripture that suggests not all people have the gift, but this may be referring to the prophetic tongue speaking.

Speaking in tongues isn't rocket science. You just ask God for the gift and then step out in faith and exercise it. It isn't a case of God overtaking you and all of a sudden you are speaking uncontrollably. If God gave you a healing gift, you still have to step out in faith and pray for people. So it is with tongues. You ask God for it, then get in your prayer closet and start speaking. At first you just embarrass yourself with the rubbish that comes out of your mouth, but as is often the case, a flow develops and you start speaking naturally without really thinking analytically about it. This then allows your spirit to receive from the Lord whatever he wants to speak to you about. Much revelation, connection and comfort can be experienced in this.

As for my own experience, I was praying in tongues once and the Lord showed me some things that were deeply disturbing about another person. I was unsure as to whether this really was from the Lord, or was an error on my part, or even worse, a deception from the devil. I decided to leave it all in God's hands and stick with praying in English until he clarifies the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:35 pm 
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I'm really not trying to throw a shot at you AJ, but do you ever consider that some of this stuff may come from the Devil? I may have an overly skeptical view, but I doubt most of the Catholic, "I see Our Lady in the, fill in the blank, as well. The Church is right to investigate every claim, thoroughly. I mean, I still think authentic "tongue speaking" has to mean something relevant to the "Word", not just , "I think my neighbor is evil". That just seems like it could lead to real danger.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Not trying to put down your experience but I guess I'm just skeptical that every Tom, Dick and Harry can be given God's gift especially since not everyone in Scrupture does it, only selected individuals and they didn't appear to be speaking giberish(as you mentioned yourself). :?:
You say that all it takes is asking God for it, where does it say that Scrupture?


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:50 pm 
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Desertfalcon wrote:
I'm really not trying to throw a shot at you AJ, but do you ever consider that some of this stuff may come from the Devil?
This is why I have left speaking in tongues on the shelf for the time being. In my own case, there exists the possibility that the devil is able to throw his rubbish in with the legitimate revelation of God. It may also be that what I saw that disturbed me is true - and very sad. Until this is clarified, I don't wish to go any further with it for concern that the devil will be able to deceive me.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:06 pm 
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Innana wrote:
Not trying to put down your experience but I guess I'm just skeptical that every Tom, Dick and Harry can be given God's gift especially since not everyone in Scrupture does it, only selected individuals and they didn't appear to be speaking giberish(as you mentioned yourself). :?:
Paul says he wishes all the believers could speak in tongues. This is God's desire spoken through Paul. What we know is that speaking in tongues was very common in the believers at Corinth, so much so, that Paul had to put limits on the use of the gift. Why should we expect the gift of tongues to be anything but common in our churches today?

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You say that all it takes is asking God for it, where does it say that Scrupture?
Luke 11:11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Matt 7:9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:17 pm 
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Desertfalcon wrote:
I'm really not trying to throw a shot at you AJ, but do you ever consider that some of this stuff may come from the Devil? I may have an overly skeptical view, but I doubt most of the Catholic, "I see Our Lady in the, fill in the blank, as well. The Church is right to investigate every claim, thoroughly. I mean, I still think authentic "tongue speaking" has to mean something relevant to the "Word", not just , "I think my neighbor is evil". That just seems like it could lead to real danger.



Are you asking about how an individual knows, or are you questioning tongues as being from the devil. There is a major difference.

Can an individual know for certain on their own - no! Fortunately we are not alone, and discernment is a gift given to the Church, and the Church has spoken. Tongues is a Gift of the Holy Spirit - be careful about calling it from the devil!

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:18 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
Innana wrote:
Not trying to put down your experience but I guess I'm just skeptical that every Tom, Dick and Harry can be given God's gift especially since not everyone in Scrupture does it, only selected individuals and they didn't appear to be speaking giberish(as you mentioned yourself). :?:
Paul says he wishes all the believers could speak in tongues. This is God's desire spoken through Paul. What we know is that speaking in tongues was very common in the believers at Corinth, so much so, that Paul had to put limits on the use of the gift. Why should we expect the gift of tongues to be anything but common in our churches today?

Quote:
You say that all it takes is asking God for it, where does it say that Scrupture?
Luke 11:11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Matt 7:9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Hmm, this doesn't talk about speaking in tongues. And receiving Holy Spirit doesn't mean you will be speaking in tongues either. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Ancient Oracle wrote:
Desertfalcon wrote:
I'm really not trying to throw a shot at you AJ, but do you ever consider that some of this stuff may come from the Devil? I may have an overly skeptical view, but I doubt most of the Catholic, "I see Our Lady in the, fill in the blank, as well. The Church is right to investigate every claim, thoroughly. I mean, I still think authentic "tongue speaking" has to mean something relevant to the "Word", not just , "I think my neighbor is evil". That just seems like it could lead to real danger.



Are you asking about how an individual knows, or are you questioning tongues as being from the devil. There is a major difference.

Can an individual know for certain on their own - no! Fortunately we are not alone, and discernment is a gift given to the Church, and the Church has spoken. Tongues is a Gift of the Holy Spirit - be careful about calling it from the devil!
If I thought tongues were of the devil, why would I even attempt to use the gift?

My issue is that the enemy sows tares among the wheat. The revelation that you get from speaking in tongues may contain tares (deception) from the enemy. One must use the gift carefully and test the revelation that comes.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Innana wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
Innana wrote:
Not trying to put down your experience but I guess I'm just skeptical that every Tom, Dick and Harry can be given God's gift especially since not everyone in Scrupture does it, only selected individuals and they didn't appear to be speaking giberish(as you mentioned yourself). :?:
Paul says he wishes all the believers could speak in tongues. This is God's desire spoken through Paul. What we know is that speaking in tongues was very common in the believers at Corinth, so much so, that Paul had to put limits on the use of the gift. Why should we expect the gift of tongues to be anything but common in our churches today?

Quote:
You say that all it takes is asking God for it, where does it say that Scrupture?
Luke 11:11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Matt 7:9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Hmm, this doesn't talk about speaking in tongues. And receiving Holy Spirit doesn't mean you will be speaking in tongues either. :?
You will notice I quoted two versions. One says God will gladly give the Holy Spirit and the other says God gladly gives "good things" which are the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues.

Also, if we look at the preceding verses we can see that if you want a spiritual gift (or anything else for that matter) all you need to do is seek God and ask;

"Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him'; and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything'? I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened."

So Scripture commands us to ask for spiritual gifts like tongues and prophecy, (1 Cor 14) and God promises not to withhold that which is good from those who seek and ask. Doesn't that mean God wants to give you the gift of tongues?

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:14 am 
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Having also been a protestant at one point in my life, I've had a little experience with some who 'think' they can speak in tongues. But it is really very dangerous for those who are inexperienced, or who have no interpreter. In fact, on occasion, some have been translated to be cursing God instead of praising God, so one never really knows what they are saying unless there is an interpreter. Gibberish cannot ever be interpreted, so those speaking in tongues are just taking for granted that they are praising God, which may not be the case at all. Speaking in known tongues needs to be interpreted, as I said above, those who were speaking in tongues truly thought they were praising God and were astonished, and scared to think that they could be used to curse God instead. I would warn your friend to be VERY careful.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:53 am 
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AJW wrote:
Paul says he wishes all the believers could speak in tongues. This is God's desire spoken through Paul. What we know is that speaking in tongues was very common in the believers at Corinth, so much so, that Paul had to put limits on the use of the gift.


Actually that is not quite what Paul says. Read the Chapter again.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Some gifts and revelations are for the edification of the communal body of Christ, and some are for personal holiness and growth. There is no reason to pick apart the personal gifts that one person experiences in private (praying in tongues, for example).

A gift is a gift. There is nothing unscriptural or inappropriate about asking God to give you any spiritual gift that he sees fit, either for personal holiness, or for the benefit of those around you.

I did not place a whole lot of stock in the gift of tongues at one time. Eventually, I received it, too. I think it's personal. I do not claim that it's for the benefit of the community. This is not the gift of prophesying. It is not for the public delivering of a message, needing an intepreter. It was suggested to me to simply not be critical or closed-minded about the various gifts, and just let God make that decision for me.

Even still, I admit that don't care for flambouyant displays.

I understand why people are stand-offish about it, because I put no stock in it myself at one time. But to suggest that it is of demonic origins is wrong. We could make the same charges against anyone who claims they've experienced visions, dreams, a prompting of one's heart, an unexplainable healing, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
Having also been a protestant at one point in my life, I've had a little experience with some who 'think' they can speak in tongues. But it is really very dangerous for those who are inexperienced, or who have no interpreter. In fact, on occasion, some have been translated to be cursing God instead of praising God, so one never really knows what they are saying unless there is an interpreter. Gibberish cannot ever be interpreted,
I need to point out an error here. Interpretation is not the same as translation. God may give the interpreter the ability to know what the person is saying without necessarily translating word for word.

Quote:
...so those speaking in tongues are just taking for granted that they are praising God, which may not be the case at all.
Reports of people cursing God in tongues have been circulated for a long time. My personal conviction is that this is very rare. The cases that involve cursing God usually involve people who have a prior involvement in witchcraft and are still being influenced by demonic spirits.

Quote:
...in known tongues needs to be interpreted, as I said above, those who were speaking in tongues truly thought they were praising God and were astonished, and scared to think that they could be used to curse God instead. I would warn your friend to be VERY careful.
Scripture tells us not to be afraid but to have faith. If you ask God for a gift of the Holy Spirit, will He give you something evil instead? Will he empower a true believer to curse Him when all they really wanted to do was to praise Him?

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:28 pm 
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MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:
AJW wrote:
Paul says he wishes all the believers could speak in tongues. This is God's desire spoken through Paul. What we know is that speaking in tongues was very common in the believers at Corinth, so much so, that Paul had to put limits on the use of the gift.


Actually that is not quite what Paul says. Read the Chapter again.
1 Cor 14:5 "Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy."

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:58 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
I need to point out an error here. Interpretation is not the same as translation. God may give the interpreter the ability to know what the person is saying without necessarily translating word for word.


Yes, you are quite right and I did use the wrong word, and I thank you for pointing that out.

Quote:
Reports of people cursing God in tongues have been circulated for a long time. My personal conviction is that this is very rare. The cases that involve cursing God usually involve people who have a prior involvement in witchcraft and are still being influenced by demonic spirits.


Rare as it may be, it has happened in the past, so one has to be VERY careful what they are doing. It's not to be entered lightly.

Quote:
Scripture tells us not to be afraid but to have faith. If you ask God for a gift of the Holy Spirit, will He give you something evil instead? Will he empower a true believer to curse Him when all they really wanted to do was to praise Him?


AJ, I'm sure those who were cursing God had faith. And no, the cursing of God doesn't come from God...that's ridiculous and not at ALL what I said, do not twist my words.

AGAIN, regardless, this person needs to be very careful.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:16 pm 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
AJ, I'm sure those who were cursing God had faith.
Yes but what kind of faith? I would say a very impure and polluted one.

Quote:
And no, the cursing of God doesn't come from God...that's ridiculous and not at ALL what I said, do not twist my words.

AGAIN, regardless, this person needs to be very careful.
I don't mean to twist your words and I'm not suggesting that God would empower anyone to curse him - quite the opposite. What I'm trying to emphasize is that we shouldn't be afraid to ask for, and exercise the gift of tongues. We are commanded not to fear but to step forward in faith. It seems to me that by relating the story of cursing God and advising to be VERY careful, you appear to have a fear of the gift leading to a dishonouring of God rather than faith that it will lead to praising God.

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