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Defending doctrine, need advice please
http://forums.avemariaradio.net/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=168821
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Author:  verumfidei [ Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Defending doctrine, need advice please

Hey everyone,

I was just wondering how you explain how to a protestant or non-Catholic how the Holy Ghost guides the church by the hand...how church councils are guided by the Holy Ghost?

I've had a few people who I've spoken with who try to say that church councils believe the Holy Ghost guides them, but it's delusion essentially...that the council decrees are man made.

I've had some struggles trying to explain it to them before they try to attack the church with sola scriptura.

Author:  verumfidei [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

No one?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

I'm not sure what you're looking for.

Author:  verumfidei [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

When a protestant asks, how can the church really be guided by the Holy Ghost...they think that when a council meets that when the church is saying that the Holy Ghost guides a council...that's it's just in their heads. That it's "man made" doctrines as some have argued to me.

I don't really know how to explain to them that the church is in fact guided by the Holy Ghost without them coming back sola scriptura and arguing that these councils are "man made" rules/doctrines.

Author:  Doom [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

verumfidei wrote:
I don't really know how to explain to them that the church is in fact guided by the Holy Ghost without them coming back sola scriptura and arguing that these councils are "man-made" rules/doctrines.



You can't, Protestants gotta Protestant. This isn't something you can argue about.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

I never agree with Doom, except during Lent :fyi:

You can at least help them to understand what's being said by comparing it to the inspiration of Scripture. If they will grant (as most will) that Scripture is without error, then it is possible for human actions to be guided by the Spirit in a way that prevents error. But showing that the Spirit does do this is a complicated task that involves chunks of Church history, scriptural exegesis from all over the place, etc. You might try tracking down a copy of Patrick Madrid's Where is That in the Bible? to see if he gives some useful pointers on this.

Author:  Doom [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I never agree with Doom, except during Lent :fyi:

You can at least help them to understand what's being said by comparing it to the inspiration of Scripture. If they will grant (as most will) that Scripture is without error, then it is possible for human actions to be guided by the Spirit in a way that prevents error. But showing that the Spirit does do this is a complicated task that involves chunks of Church history, scriptural exegesis from all over the place, etc. You might try tracking down a copy of Patrick Madrid's Where is That in the Bible? to see if he gives some useful pointers on this.


But the question isn't 'how can I argue for a such and such a doctrine in a way that is so compelling that no one will just dismiss what I have to say with just a wave of the hand?' and the answer to THAT question is 'you can't.'

The question is ultimately 'how do you overcome someone's irrational prejudice?' and the answer ultimately is 'unless the person you are talking to WANTS to overcome his prejudice, you can't.' If the person is open to the idea that maybe his prejudices are misguided, and he wants to be persuaded, there might be some hope, but that's not something you have any control over.

You can make any argument you want, there's no way you can make sure that the person you are talking to won't just dismiss your argument with a wave of the hand.

If that is what happens, then all you can do is 'wipe the dust off your feet' and find a way to politely exit the conversation.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

:wave

Author:  Alexandros [ Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

verumfidei wrote:
When a protestant asks, how can the church really be guided by the Holy Ghost...they think that when a council meets that when the church is saying that the Holy Ghost guides a council...that's it's just in their heads. That it's "man made" doctrines as some have argued to me.

I don't really know how to explain to them that the church is in fact guided by the Holy Ghost without them coming back sola scriptura and arguing that these councils are "man made" rules/doctrines.



The best argument, which doesn't mean it will convince them, is to cite the council in Acts 15, then demonstrate the teaching authority of St. Peter and the Apostles from other sources of Scripture (Matthew 16:18, John 20:19-22) which is reflected in Acts 15, then demonstrate that their offices were to be carried on and handed down (Apostolic succession). You can also look at the history of the Church immediately following the Apostles (non-Biblical historical sources). So.... it won't be a short response...

This may be helpful: https://www.scripturecatholic.com/apost ... uccession/

EDIT: What's really man-made is to say it has to be in Scripture. Because no where in Scripture does it say all the tenants of Christianity, doctrines, and definitions are contained in Scripture. You may even have to start here before anything.

Author:  theJack [ Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

Alexandros wrote:
verumfidei wrote:
When a protestant asks, how can the church really be guided by the Holy Ghost...they think that when a council meets that when the church is saying that the Holy Ghost guides a council...that's it's just in their heads. That it's "man made" doctrines as some have argued to me.

I don't really know how to explain to them that the church is in fact guided by the Holy Ghost without them coming back sola scriptura and arguing that these councils are "man made" rules/doctrines.



The best argument, which doesn't mean it will convince them, is to cite the council in Acts 15, then demonstrate the teaching authority of St. Peter and the Apostles from other sources of Scripture (Matthew 16:18, John 20:19-22) which is reflected in Acts 15, then demonstrate that their offices were to be carried on and handed down (Apostolic succession). You can also look at the history of the Church immediately following the Apostles (non-Biblical historical sources). So.... it won't be a short response...

This may be helpful: https://www.scripturecatholic.com/apost ... uccession/

EDIT: What's really man-made is to say it has to be in Scripture. Because no where in Scripture does it say all the tenants of Christianity, doctrines, and definitions are contained in Scripture. You may even have to start here before anything.

I actually don't think that's anywhere near the best argument. I think that's something that's appealing after conversion for the simple reason that "demonstrat[ing] the teaching authority of St. Peter and the Apostles from other sources of Scripture" will require getting into a debate about the best interpretation of Scripture, and you're just not going to get anywhere with that. To me, a far, far, far better argument in defense of Catholicism in general and most Catholic doctrines is wrapped up in the cliche, "To believe the church fathers is to be Catholic." Very few non-Catholics have read the apostolic fathers. Off the top, non-Catholics (especially of the low church, evangelical kind) aren't going to be terribly impressed with post-Nicene fathers . . . they just expect them to be Catholic. But you can genuinely surprise people by quoting second and third century authors. The person you're talking to almost certainly will not have the expertise with that particular document to get into exegetical argument about what the passage "really means" as they will with Scripture, so you won't have to get into a debate about whether or not, say, Irenaeus, was Catholic. You'll be granted that much quicker than you'll be granted that Luke in Acts 15 was Catholic! Just so, they won't have the emotional investment in seeing the early Christian authors in a non-Catholic light because they're own theology insists that such is not Scripture. And finally, even if they try to argue against the earliest church fathers being Catholic . . . well . . . to put it mildly, they'll have quite an uphill battle on their hands.

In short, if you get non-Catholics discussing the earliest church fathers, you'll have them talking on your turf, so to speak. Those Christians are far more likely than not to lack the expertise, emotional attachment, or textual warrant for arguing against a Catholic interpretation of those documents. And that sets you up rather nicely for the argument that if the earliest Christians were Catholic, and many of them knew the apostles personally, well . . . how do they think that happened? Then if they return with, "Yeah, but Scripture says . . ." you've set the table appropriately with a rejoinder along the lines of, "No, your tradition, which is only a few centuries (or much less!) old says Scripture says . . . my tradition, which goes back to the earliest Christians, says that Scripture says . . ."

Just my opinion, of course. :-)

Author:  flyingaway [ Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defending doctrine, need advice please

verumfidei wrote:
When a protestant asks, how can the church really be guided by the Holy Ghost...they think that when a council meets that when the church is saying that the Holy Ghost guides a council...that's it's just in their heads. That it's "man made" doctrines as some have argued to me.

I don't really know how to explain to them that the church is in fact guided by the Holy Ghost without them coming back sola scriptura and arguing that these councils are "man made" rules/doctrines.

Jesus said that the gates of Hell (heresy, etc) would NOT prevail against His Church and so I think we can safely assume that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church (Mt 16:18)

Ask them to go back in history and find when it was that the Church failed (to the gates of Hell)

If they say Constantine changed the Church and the Church had to go underground from then on or whatever, then they have to admit that Jesus did not keep his promise in Mt 16:18

If they say that any other event destroyed the Church, ditto

Catholicism CAN be proven from the Bible alone IMO although as we know, the Church preceded the written Word (printing press not invented until 1440)

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