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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:26 am 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Doom wrote:
Peetem wrote:
I know I'm going to be attacked for saying this, but I don't actually believe there are 40,000 denominations of Protestantism. It's a case of, we have made the definition of Protestant and therefore, 40,000 different groups meet that definition.



If you count all the independent 'Bible churches' that were founded by one guy and which is not in communion with anyone else, then not only can you get to 40,000 very easily, you could get to 400,000 very easily.

In my city, there are at least 10-20 of these little independent 'Bible churches' which are communion with no one except themselves. One big one is a church that calls itself 'The Church of the Open Bible', it is not part of any denomination. Why shouldn't it be regarded as its own denomination?



You can so regard it, for all of me.

The group that is the usual source of the 20K-30K numbers has a particular meaning for denominations, for their purpose. They get to do that, it being their study.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:35 pm 
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I love retreading old debates.


Last edited by theJack on Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
If you count all the independent 'Bible churches' that were founded by one guy and which is not in communion with anyone else, then not only can you get to 40,000 very easily, you could get to 400,000 very easily.

In my city, there are at least 10-20 of these little independent 'Bible churches' which are communion with no one except themselves. One big one is a church that calls itself 'The Church of the Open Bible', it is not part of any denomination. Why shouldn't it be regarded as its own denomination?


As I stated above - "I think there's probably about 30-40 Christian faiths (of the non-orthodox/Eastern variety) where the tenets of the faith are materially different regarding: God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. Other than that, it seems to me the other 30,960 are essentially just subsets of the 30-40."

When you distill the beliefs all the independents at their "Bible Churches" you would find they are almost identical in their beliefs about God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. While they may call themselves things like "The Holy Tabernacle Apostolic Temple" or "The River Faith Assembly", at their core their beliefs are the same.


That is understood, but it doesn't matter.

It is a matter of governance, and when an assembly answers to no one else, not even others with whom they share the exact same beliefs, they are a separate unit and therefore qualify as a separate "denomination."

Point of fact: seven different Lutheran churches in one town. Three are WELS. They are all one denomination. Why? Because they all answer to one head over them. The other four are Missouri Synod. They are not the same denomination, even though they have the exact same beliefs. Why? Because they have different headship.

Now if the word "denomination" is determined by belief only, then the above example is of one denomination only. But as we know, WELS and MS are two different denominations because of headship.

So this

Image

is its own denomination.

And in no way would he take orders from this guy:

Image

who is also in the city of Detroit.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:41 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
Speed Racer wrote:
Note, from the link I posted, the same source that gave us 20,000+ denominations (in total) included 223 denominations within the Catholic Church. Obviously, this is absurd.
Light of the East wrote:
If you understand what constitutes a "Denomination" the number is not absurd at all.

By denomination, they mean a free-standing, sui juris body, i.e., the pastor is the head and answers to no one else.
But that is NOT how the word 'denomination' is used in the World Christian Encyclopedia, which gives the number. Or are you saying that, say, the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales is a sui juris body in which the leader, the Archbishop of Westminster, answers to no on else?

Light of the East wrote:
The guy who said there were 232 denominations within the Catholic Church obviously doesn't understand the concept of hierarchical authority and headship.
But you get 223+ denominations in the Catholic Church if you use the definition of denomination from the World Christian Encyclopedia. You can't have it both ways. If you want to claim that there are 30,000 'Protestant' denominations (in which the term 'Protestant' is basically meaningless), you have to also concede that there are hundreds of denominations within the Catholic Church.



Oh, dear. The virus spreads.


Yes. I am quite feverish.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:50 pm 
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theJack wrote:


it's what we do ..there is nothing new under the sun ... i recalled your thread in which your supposition that the 30-40k number for protestant denoms was spurious


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:06 pm 
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theJack wrote:

It saves the trouble of inventing new ones.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:26 pm 
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What a gherkinist thing to say, padre. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:26 pm 
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:cry: What did I ever do to you?


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
theJack wrote:

It saves the trouble of inventing new ones.


For which relief, much thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
:cry: What did I ever do to you?


You're right, especially after that very nice shout-out you did today (I was almost afraid it'd be something about Timmy TearBlow).

Guess no good deed goes unpunished. I'm sorry. :cry: :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Peetem wrote:


When you distill the beliefs all the independents at their "Bible Churches" you would find they are almost identical in their beliefs about God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. While they may call themselves things like "The Holy Tabernacle Apostolic Temple" or "The River Faith Assembly", at their core their beliefs are the same.



I get so tired of having this argument over and over again on this board, but I will go through the motions one more time.


First, as to the assertion that 'the core beliefs are the same', who decides which beliefs are the 'core beliefs'?

There are reasons why these little groups originated, generally, they generally originate from a dispute over something or other that some people think is absolutely essential, essential enough to break away and form your own church over, and other people think 'Nah, it's no big deal'. Who decides this?

Whatever the issue is, sometimes the issues that split a congregation can seem fairly trivial, like whether or not to use musical instruments during worship, or whether baptism can be performed only by immersion, or how often to offer communion, or whether or not speaking in tongues is required for salvation, but the mere fact that the dispute exists and that some members think it is so important that it is worth splitting the congregation in two and founding your own church, means that they DO NOT AGREE on what the core doctrines are, if they agreed, they never would have split up. Clearly, the people who will leave a church and found their own because they don't think it is appropriate to play the saxophone during worship is an indication that they regard this issue as a 'core doctrine.'


And finally, so what? Christ commands not merely 'unity in doctrine' but corporate unity as well. He prayed that we would all be one as he is one. We have only one God, not many, therefore, we should have only one church, not many. If all these little independent Bible churches really do 'agree on the core doctrines' then why aren't they in communion with each other? The fact that they are not is a sin and a scandal.

To many non-Christians, the strongest possible argument against Christianity is denominationalism. They look at the disunity among Christians and say 'if Christians can't even agree among themselves about what Christianity is. then why should I believe in it? If I pick the wrong denomination, I could go to hell.' This is true not just of atheists and agnostics who have an ax to grind, but it is true of many people of goodwill who might be otherwise inclined to take a favorable opinion of Christianity, but for whom Christian disunity scares them away and prevents them from converting, and no amount of excuses or attempts to explain away why the disunity 'doesn't really matter' is going to work with them. This is why corporate unity is so vitally important.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:02 am 
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Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.

Heck I don't even know if it's suitable for protestants.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:40 am 
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Quote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic
What do you mean by "verse slinging"?


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:24 am 
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Nathan wrote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.


That kind of argument is the only kind of argument that the people Catholic Answers is targeting are willing to accept.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:05 am 
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Doom wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.


That kind of argument is the only kind of argument that the people Catholic Answers is targeting are willing to accept.


CA is about to undergo a board format shift, and some other things I might not like. My career there may be ended.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:39 am 
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GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.


That kind of argument is the only kind of argument that the people Catholic Answers is targeting are willing to accept.


CA is about to undergo a board format shift, and some other things I might not like. My career there may be ended.

Oh? Spill! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:49 am 
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More gherkins :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.


That kind of argument is the only kind of argument that the people Catholic Answers is targeting are willing to accept.


CA is about to undergo a board format shift, and some other things I might not like. My career there may be ended.

Oh? Spill! :mrgreen:


It involves "change" and "different ways of doing things", and and "different format" and something about moderation not being the same, and other stuff. I will give it a chance, and take a moderate approach, waiting to judge, but I suspect it may not be to my liking. Because change.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:06 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.


That kind of argument is the only kind of argument that the people Catholic Answers is targeting are willing to accept.


CA is about to undergo a board format shift, and some other things I might not like. My career there may be ended.

Oh? Spill! :mrgreen:


It involves "change" and "different ways of doing things", and and "different format" and something about moderation not being the same, and other stuff. I will give it a chance, and take a moderate approach, waiting to judge, but I suspect it may not be to my liking. Because change.

Remind me to ask you about the KofC 4th degree regalia sometime - one outsider to another. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:49 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
Nathan wrote:
Verse slinging is a no go for a Catholic, and I wish Catholic Answers and others would stop engaging in apologetics on these grounds.


That kind of argument is the only kind of argument that the people Catholic Answers is targeting are willing to accept.


CA is about to undergo a board format shift, and some other things I might not like. My career there may be ended.

Oh? Spill! :mrgreen:


It involves "change" and "different ways of doing things", and and "different format" and something about moderation not being the same, and other stuff. I will give it a chance, and take a moderate approach, waiting to judge, but I suspect it may not be to my liking. Because change.



You work at Catholic Answers? Doing what?


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