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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:12 pm 
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King of Cool

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Jack wrote:
That would only be a meaningful critique if you yourself actually believed what the Bible plainly says. But since you don't, well, you know . . . kettle, meet pot. :wink:



Oh no, the old 'plain understanding of the Bible' canard, also known as the 'everyone who disagrees with Jack is stupid' card. Please tell me again how you are the only one who understands the Bible and anyone whose understanding differs from your own is guilty of sin.

No two scholars of Shakespeare or Dickens can agree on what their writings mean, but somehow the Bible, which is a much more difficult book than anything written by either of those writers, and which requires mastery of two ancient languages and a deep understanding of the cultures of several ancient civilizations to be able to understand fully, has a 'plain meaning' that anyone can understand so long as they are as smart and honest as Jack.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:34 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
theJack wrote:
That would only be a meaningful critique if you yourself actually believed what the Bible plainly says. But since you don't, well, you know . . . kettle, meet pot. :wink:


So says the Protestant who holds to his own private interpretation of the Scriptures. :wink: back atcha.

And your objection would only have force if you held to the perspicuity of Scripture, which you don't. Now, if you want to concede that issue to me, then maybe we'll make some headway in getting you to give up some of your ridiculous attempts to justify some of your even more ridiculous ideas about such things as you've been corrected on on more than one time on these boards. At least I don't pretend like the history of interpretation is important except when it suits me, unlike you.


Your claim of "perspecuity of the Scriptures" is yet another ridiculous attempt made to justify yourself regardless of the facts. If the Scriptures were indeed as clear as you say they are, there would not be some 40,000 Prottie denominations with all kinds of interpretations of them, ranging from the mildly heretical to the absolutely bizarre. Your lack of any cogent understanding of a covenant and how it works is simple enough proof to me that you don't know your head from third base when it comes to theology, and I say this not as a Catholic, but pointing out that you don't even agree with your fellow Protestant travelers such as Ray Sutton. You can't even agree with fellow anti-Catholics and you want to lecture ME????

Sheeeesh :nooo: :nooo: :nooo:

Someone like Scott Hahn or Robert Sungenis would hand you your ass on a platter.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:44 pm 
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I know I'm going to be attacked for saying this, but I don't actually believe there are 40,000 denominations of Protestantism. It's a case of, we have made the definition of Protestant and therefore, 40,000 different groups meet that definition.

I think there's probably about 30-40 Christian faiths (of the non-orthodox/Eastern variety) where the tenets of the faith are materially different regarding: God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. Other than that, it seems to me the other 30,960 are essentially just subsets of the 30-40.

But still, these 30-40 (might be a little more or a little less) are ALL materially different from the Catholic faith that is union with the Holy See. Ultimately the difference seems to be rooted in Authority.

Now I've come to that conclusion based on another thread that I have yet to respond too (properly) as I have promised Jack I would do. Regardless, I do understand Jack's position in this thread and think folks are going about dissolving his rebuttals in all the wrong way.....but I'm still new to this. :D


Last edited by Peetem on Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
I know I'm going to be attacked for saying this, but I don't actually believe there are 40,000 denominations of Protestantism. It's a case of, we have made the definition of Protestant and therefore, 40,000 different groups meet that definition.

I think there's probably about 30-40 Christian faiths (of the non-orthodox/Eastern variety) where the tenants of the faith are materially different regarding: God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. Other than that, it seems to me the other 30,960 are essentially just subsets of the 30-40.

But still, these 30-40 (might be a little more or a little less) are ALL materially different from the Catholic faith that is union with the Holy See. Ultimately the difference seems to be rooted in Authority.

Now I've come to that conclusion based on another thread that I have yet to respond too (properly) as I have promised Jack I would do. Regardless, I do understand Jack's position in this thread and think folks are going about dissolving his rebuttals in all the wrong way.....but I'm still new to this. :D


Dave Armstrong agrees with you that the figure of tens of thousands of Protestant denominations is exaggerated. He thinks the actual number is probably in the hundreds.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstr ... ns-no.html


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:02 pm 
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The 30,000 number was never a good one in the first place and shouldn't be used. Two is enough to make the point involved anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Note, from the link I posted, the same source that gave us 20,000+ denominations (in total) included 223 denominations within the Catholic Church. Obviously, this is absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:10 pm 
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If you understand what constitutes a "Denomination" the number is not absurd at all.

By denomination, they mean a free-standing, sui juris body, i.e., the pastor is the head and answers to no one else. Now while in mainline Protestantism, such as Lutheranism, this would not be true of individual parishes because they have a central headship, every little "Independent, Bible-Believing, KJV Only" group of Fundamentalist Bible - thumpers qualifies under those terms. And in case you haven't looked lately, they are like fleas on a mangy old dog, both here in America and around the world where they go out to "Get them poor, idol-worshiping Catlicks saved."

The guy who said there were 232 denominations within the Catholic Church obviously doesn't understand the concept of hierarchical authority and headship.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:16 pm 
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The problem is that no one ever counted 30K. It was an extrapolation and didn't account for the fact that these one-off groups disappear as fast as they arise.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that no one ever counted 30K. It was an extrapolation and didn't account for the fact that these one-off groups disappear as fast as they arise.


Come on, Father. I could find probably 200 in the DC area alone. They multiply like rats.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:43 pm 
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Speed Racer wrote:
included 223 denominations within the Catholic Church. Obviously, this is absurd.


No, it isn't. It is anything but absurd once you understand what he means by 'denomination.' But I'm not going to have this argument again.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that no one ever counted 30K. It was an extrapolation and didn't account for the fact that these one-off groups disappear as fast as they arise.


Come on, Father. I could find probably 200 in the DC area alone. They multiply like rats.


Mark 9:38-41New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

Another Exorcist
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone[a] casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 Whoever is not against us is for us. 41 For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward.


I'm probably being a little too ecumenical, but I find comparing Christians to rats a little harsh.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that no one ever counted 30K. It was an extrapolation and didn't account for the fact that these one-off groups disappear as fast as they arise.


Come on, Father. I could find probably 200 in the DC area alone. They multiply like rats.



I'm probably being a little too ecumenical, but I find comparing Christians to rats a little harsh.

+1


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that no one ever counted 30K. It was an extrapolation and didn't account for the fact that these one-off groups disappear as fast as they arise.


Come on, Father. I could find probably 200 in the DC area alone. They multiply like rats.


Mark 9:38-41New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

Another Exorcist
38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone[a] casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 Whoever is not against us is for us. 41 For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward.


I'm probably being a little too ecumenical, but I find comparing Christians to rats a little harsh.


Had you been in the kind of Fundamentalism I have been through, you might change your mind. These people hurt folks, create division, and sometimes sow outright hatred. Their lies about the Catholic Church are beyond the pale.

Yes, my comment was not exactly kind. Something I have to work on called "forgiving them."


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:51 am 
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King of Cool

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Peetem wrote:
I know I'm going to be attacked for saying this, but I don't actually believe there are 40,000 denominations of Protestantism. It's a case of, we have made the definition of Protestant and therefore, 40,000 different groups meet that definition.



If you count all the independent 'Bible churches' that were founded by one guy and which is not in communion with anyone else, then not only can you get to 40,000 very easily, you could get to 400,000 very easily.

In my city, there are at least 10-20 of these little independent 'Bible churches' which are communion with no one except themselves. One big one is a church that calls itself 'The Church of the Open Bible', it is not part of any denomination. Why shouldn't it be regarded as its own denomination?


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:56 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The problem is that no one ever counted 30K. It was an extrapolation and didn't account for the fact that these one-off groups disappear as fast as they arise.


Come on, Father. I could find probably 200 in the DC area alone. They multiply like rats.


Speaking of DC, consider that for 20 years, Obama belonged to Jeremiah Wright's church on the south side of Chicago. Jeremiah Wright preached black nationalism and black liberation theology. Jeremiah Wright's church is an independent church that does not belong to any national organization. I don't see why it shouldn't be regarded as its own little denomination.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:25 am 
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Speed Racer wrote:
Note, from the link I posted, the same source that gave us 20,000+ denominations (in total) included 223 denominations within the Catholic Church. Obviously, this is absurd.
Light of the East wrote:
If you understand what constitutes a "Denomination" the number is not absurd at all.

By denomination, they mean a free-standing, sui juris body, i.e., the pastor is the head and answers to no one else.
But that is NOT how the word 'denomination' is used in the World Christian Encyclopedia, which gives the number. Or are you saying that, say, the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales is a sui juris body in which the leader, the Archbishop of Westminster, answers to no on else?

Light of the East wrote:
The guy who said there were 232 denominations within the Catholic Church obviously doesn't understand the concept of hierarchical authority and headship.
But you get 223+ denominations in the Catholic Church if you use the definition of denomination from the World Christian Encyclopedia. You can't have it both ways. If you want to claim that there are 30,000 'Protestant' denominations (in which the term 'Protestant' is basically meaningless), you have to also concede that there are hundreds of denominations within the Catholic Church.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:09 am 
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Doom wrote:
If you count all the independent 'Bible churches' that were founded by one guy and which is not in communion with anyone else, then not only can you get to 40,000 very easily, you could get to 400,000 very easily.

In my city, there are at least 10-20 of these little independent 'Bible churches' which are communion with no one except themselves. One big one is a church that calls itself 'The Church of the Open Bible', it is not part of any denomination. Why shouldn't it be regarded as its own denomination?


As I stated above - "I think there's probably about 30-40 Christian faiths (of the non-orthodox/Eastern variety) where the tenets of the faith are materially different regarding: God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. Other than that, it seems to me the other 30,960 are essentially just subsets of the 30-40."

When you distill the beliefs all the independents at their "Bible Churches" you would find they are almost identical in their beliefs about God, grace, justification, salvation, scripture, and authority. While they may call themselves things like "The Holy Tabernacle Apostolic Temple" or "The River Faith Assembly", at their core their beliefs are the same.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:20 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Speed Racer wrote:
Note, from the link I posted, the same source that gave us 20,000+ denominations (in total) included 223 denominations within the Catholic Church. Obviously, this is absurd.
Light of the East wrote:
If you understand what constitutes a "Denomination" the number is not absurd at all.

By denomination, they mean a free-standing, sui juris body, i.e., the pastor is the head and answers to no one else.
But that is NOT how the word 'denomination' is used in the World Christian Encyclopedia, which gives the number. Or are you saying that, say, the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales is a sui juris body in which the leader, the Archbishop of Westminster, answers to no on else?

Light of the East wrote:
The guy who said there were 232 denominations within the Catholic Church obviously doesn't understand the concept of hierarchical authority and headship.
But you get 223+ denominations in the Catholic Church if you use the definition of denomination from the World Christian Encyclopedia. You can't have it both ways. If you want to claim that there are 30,000 'Protestant' denominations (in which the term 'Protestant' is basically meaningless), you have to also concede that there are hundreds of denominations within the Catholic Church.



Oh, dear. The virus spreads.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:21 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The 30,000 number was never a good one in the first place and shouldn't be used. Two is enough to make the point involved anyhow.



As I've often posted.


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 Post subject: Re: How to be Born Again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:23 am 
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Speed Racer wrote:
Note, from the link I posted, the same source that gave us 20,000+ denominations (in total) included 223 denominations within the Catholic Church. Obviously, this is absurd.



Not for the purposes of the group that established those figures.

They are defining denomination is a idiosyncratic method, for their statistical analysis reasons.


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