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 Post subject: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:28 am 
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Journeyman
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i have a friend who one of the reasons he said he stopped being Christian is because he did not think the Christians he knew were different or better than anyone else.


i know some other people who have a similar sentiment. they just see Christians as judgmental, on a high horse etc.

what can you say to this kind of thinking?


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:03 am 
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A certain British preacher MacNabb, speaking in Hyde Park, had spoken of the Church. When he finished, someone asked to speak and said: "Yours are fine words. But I know some Catholic priests who did not stay with the poor and became rich. I know also Catholic husbands who have betrayed their wives. I do not like this Church made of sinners." The Father said: "There's something in what you say. But may I make an objection?" — "Let's hear it."—He says: "Excuse me, but am I mistaken or is the collar of your shirt a little greasy?" —He says: "Yes, it is, I admit." —"But is it greasy because you haven't used soap, or because you used soap but it was no use?" "No", he says, I haven't used soap."

You see. The Catholic Church too has extraordinary soap: the gospel, the sacraments, prayer. The gospel read and lived; the sacraments celebrated in the right way; prayer well used, would be a marvellous soap, capable of making us all saints. We are not all saints, because we have not used this soap enough... Let us try to improve the Church, by becoming better ourselves.
Source: http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul- ... 91978.html

23. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior's infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.

24. Let every one then abhor sin, which defiles the mystical members of our Redeemer; but if anyone unhappily falls and his obstinacy has not made him unworthy of communion with the faithful, let him be received with great love, and let eager charity see in him a weak member of Jesus Christ. For, as the Bishop of Hippo remarks, it is better "to be cured within the Church's community than to be cut off from its body as incurable members."[21] "As long as a member still forms part of the body there is no reason to despair of its cure; once it has been cut off, it can be neither cured nor healed." 
Source: http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/e ... risti.html


Last edited by Jack3 on Mon May 22, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:05 am 
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kpl2014 wrote:

i know some other people who have a similar sentiment. they just see Christians as judgmental, on a high horse etc

In making this judgement, are they not being judgemental themselves?


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
kpl2014 wrote:

i know some other people who have a similar sentiment. they just see Christians as judgmental, on a high horse etc

In making this judgement, are they not being judgemental themselves?


I think it is an evaluation. Not a judgement.
I think what they are saying is: Why bother? Whats the point? It makes no honestly perceivable difference. They discern no difference between members and non members. Their point is that the only real defining sign/ badge of membership is the right to be judgmental of non members.

Alexander the Great was holding court and had a young deserter brought before him. The penalty was death for desertion.
He asked the youth his name. Alexander sir, was the reply. The king looked the young man in the eye and said. Soldier, either change your ways or change your name.


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:30 pm 
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kpl2014 wrote:
Quote:
i have a friend who one of the reasons he said he stopped being Christian is because he did not think the Christians he knew were different or better than anyone else.


i know some other people who have a similar sentiment. they just see Christians as judgmental, on a high horse etc.

what can you say to this kind of thinking?


Christians don't claim to be different or better than anyone else. What we are is better off than anyone else. We are all sinners, But, by the Grace of God the Christian has encountered His love, become awake to their sin & is on the way to being transformed into His divine image.

At the very least what your friend should notice in a Christian is a turning away from sin & it is usually this observation that causes many to accuse us Christians of being judgmental. This is because our turning away from sin serves to shine a light on the sins of those around us and many people hate the light & avoid it.


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Jedi Master
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Sometimes, however, it is possible to get preoccupied with the sins of others and become an annoying busybody. But there certainly is a sense in which people attack anyone who even indirectly suggests they are doing something wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:51 pm 
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kpl2014 wrote:
i have a friend who one of the reasons he said he stopped being Christian is because he did not think the Christians he knew were different or better than anyone else.


i know some other people who have a similar sentiment. they just see Christians as judgmental, on a high horse etc.

what can you say to this kind of thinking?



I love mankind, It's people that I cant stand.
...Charlie Brown.



Maybe start a conversation. Take him from the general to the specific. Ask if he thinks you are judgmental. If he says no then that is evidence that there is a positive effect in the Christian lifestyle. If he says yes that is an opportunity to demonstrate humility/ apologize, ask forgiveness ...again demonstrating a Christian ideal.
Either way he answers...
Lead into a conversation about humility/ forgiveness being a cornerstone of Christianity. Ask if that is a good thing.
I have heard it explained that lack of forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting it to affect the other person.
Jesus said "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against us". It is a good thing. Christian or not.

The act of forgiveness opens the heart to understanding.
Jesus alluded to that in his analogy ... You see the speck in the other persons eye... all the while ignoring the log in your own. Hint: I would not go there/ be that blunt... in the conversation with your friend unless you're certain that he would take it in the spirit you intended.

The act of forgiveness can remove the blockage to his receiving God's forgiveness and the resultant understanding... perhaps leading to reconciliation with God and other Christians.

Paul or one of them said (paraphrased) ; If you see someone going astray, lead them back. ..but do it gently .... :)


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:30 pm 
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The problem with complaining that someone else is judgmental is that the moment you make this complaint, you become guilty of the same sin.

It is similar to when people complain about other people being intolerant.


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:43 pm 
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Journeyman
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When judgemental means critical/disapproving of actions or proposals which devalue or destroy virtues and sound values, judging is most valuable as Jesus and the Sacred Scriptures teach.

Here is the reality of judging with which you can enlighten all who “feel” that way. We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerized by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures. We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God). (Mt 7:1-5).

But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth. Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:
"Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly." (Jn 7:24).

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them" (Mt 7:15, 16).

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them." (Mt 7:19-20).

"Test everything: retain what is good." (1Thess 5:21).

"The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone." (1 Cor 2:15).

"I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed..." (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

"I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying." (1 Cor 10:15).

"Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 Jn 4:1).

"I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth." (Rev 3:16).

The correction should be with the intention of helping others to see right from wrong and truth from falsehood and so assisting in the path to virtue.


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 Post subject: Re: bad christians?
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:51 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
... Maybe start a conversation. Take him from the general to the specific. Ask if he thinks you are judgmental. If he says no then that is evidence that there is a positive effect in the Christian lifestyle. If he says yes that is an opportunity to demonstrate humility/ apologize, ask forgiveness ...again demonstrating a Christian ideal.
Either way he answers...
Lead into a conversation about humility/ forgiveness being a cornerstone of Christianity. Ask if that is a good thing...

:thumbsup:


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