Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 4   [ 79 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:21 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:04 pm
Posts: 9
Religion: Anglican
I know why. It's to ask for her intercession, the same way I would ask any saints, or even my husband and friends to intercede for me. But I've been linked to a brief talk by John Piper (only it's not John Piper, it's some English fellow) on why Catholics pray to Mary. It's very dismissive of early church witness, and unsurprisingly takes Luther's testimony at face value. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to stuff here - if I am, could anyone help me refute it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:22 am 
Offline
The Exterminator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:44 pm
Posts: 27120
Location: The Old Forest
Religion: Númenórean Catholic
Yeah sure post a link.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:12 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 14052
Location: Joyfully Caught in the Net
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus
"St. Irenaeus remarked, "He who is devout to the Virgin Mother will certainly never be lost." St. Augustine addresses Mary, "Through you do the miserable obtain mercy, the ungracious grace, and the weak strength." St. Jerome wrote, "Mary not only comes to us when called, but even spontaneously advances to meet us." St. Basil the Great (379 A.D.), bishop of Caesarea, declared, "God has ordained that she should assist us in everything!" St. John Damascene prayed, "O Mother of God, if I place my confidence in you, I shall be saved. If I am under your protection, I have nothing to fear, for the fact of being your client is the possession of a certainty of salvation, which God grants only to those whom He intends to save." St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!" St. Fulgentius (533 A.D.), bishop of Ruspe, stated, "Mary is the ladder of heaven; for by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by her men might ascend from earth to Heaven."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/fr90203.htm

I love EWTN! :cloud9:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:38 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:04 pm
Posts: 9
Religion: Anglican
Ok, here is the link. Any help gratefully received :) https://soundcloud.com/askpastorjohn/why-do-catholics-pray-to-mary-episode-381-reeves


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:38 pm 
Desertfalcon wrote:
"St. Irenaeus remarked, "He who is devout to the Virgin Mother will certainly never be lost." St. Augustine addresses Mary, "Through you do the miserable obtain mercy, the ungracious grace, and the weak strength." St. Jerome wrote, "Mary not only comes to us when called, but even spontaneously advances to meet us." St. Basil the Great (379 A.D.), bishop of Caesarea, declared, "God has ordained that she should assist us in everything!" St. John Damascene prayed, "O Mother of God, if I place my confidence in you, I shall be saved. If I am under your protection, I have nothing to fear, for the fact of being your client is the possession of a certainty of salvation, which God grants only to those whom He intends to save." St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!" St. Fulgentius (533 A.D.), bishop of Ruspe, stated, "Mary is the ladder of heaven; for by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by her men might ascend from earth to Heaven."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/fr90203.htm

I love EWTN! :cloud9:


What the "Word of God" really says: Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Hebrews 8:6; 9:15 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me. But you quote: St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!"

Do you perceive a difference in man made doctrine vs The Word of God? Hopefully you will.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:24 am 
Offline
Our Lady's Gladiator
Our Lady's Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:26 am
Posts: 100576
Location: Revelation 11:19-12:1
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus
did he or did he not say , after God ?

did you miss that part phil?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:36 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4863
Location: Wherever my horse or pipe weed may take me.
Religion: Catholic
Phil Kerr wrote:
But you quote: St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!"

Do you perceive a difference in man made doctrine vs The Word of God? Hopefully you will.


You clearly do not get what the term "context" means.

Since you regard Jesus as the angel Michael and not God the Son, its easy to see how you miss the fact that "God" includes the Trinity, includes Jesus.

Mary is our hope because as God through Christ has glorified her by her faith, so do we believe that God through Christ will glorify us with her.

Therefore it is not a contradiction or repudiation of Jesus' mediation of the Covenant, nor of Scripture.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:49 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:21 pm
Posts: 14052
Location: Joyfully Caught in the Net
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus
Phil Kerr wrote:
Do you perceive a difference in man made doctrine vs The Word of God? Hopefully you will.

Really, given the SDA's creation by Ellen White and it's rather....interesting and non-orthdox created theology that even many Protestants believe place SDA's outside of Christianity, that is funny coming from an SDA. ::):


One thing I have found being a convert from a Protestant background, is "Show me someone who rejects the faith of the Early Church Fathers and I'll show you someone who does not actually understand the Christian faith."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:57 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:40 am
Posts: 8521
Location: Tennessee
Religion: Catholic
Eruvande wrote:


I can't (or won't) reach link. What is gist of the argument?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:44 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:12 pm
Posts: 102
Religion: Baptist
Jon Snow wrote:
Phil Kerr wrote:
But you quote: St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!"

Do you perceive a difference in man made doctrine vs The Word of God? Hopefully you will.


You clearly do not get what the term "context" means.

Since you regard Jesus as the angel Michael and not God the Son, its easy to see how you miss the fact that "God" includes the Trinity, includes Jesus.

Mary is our hope because as God through Christ has glorified her by her faith, so do we believe that God through Christ will glorify us with her.

Therefore it is not a contradiction or repudiation of Jesus' mediation of the Covenant, nor of Scripture.


"Mary is our hope"? Hope for what? Can you find any scripture that shows that we should have any hope in Mary? And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

"God through Christ will glorify us with her." Now what do you mean by "with her"?
Perhaps:
1. That we also are glorified as Mary is glorified?
or
2. That we are glorified because of Mary?

I ask because you did say "through Christ". But if God is glorifying us, then what does Mary have to do with our being glorified?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:58 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4863
Location: Wherever my horse or pipe weed may take me.
Religion: Catholic
AaronL wrote:
"Mary is our hope"? Hope for what? Can you find any scripture that shows that we should have any hope in Mary?


Where in Scripture does it say that everything for our Faith must be explicitly mentioned in Scripture?


AaronL wrote:
And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

Her being the personification of the Church her intercessions & the graces she receives from Christ, and the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God.

AaronL wrote:
"God through Christ will glorify us with her." Now what do you mean by "with her"?
Perhaps:
1. That we also are glorified as Mary is glorified?
or
2. That we are glorified because of Mary?


#1, of course.

AaronL wrote:
But if God is glorifying us, then what does Mary have to do with our being glorified?


That's like asking, "what do your parents have to do with your birth, or raising you?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:28 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:12 pm
Posts: 102
Religion: Baptist
AaronL wrote:
And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

Her being the personification of the Church her intercessions & the graces she receives from Christ, and the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God.

Thanks for the reply. Okay, this sounds important--right?

It appears that you have a list of four things that you hope for in Mary.

Explain more clearly the following as they relate to our hope in Mary:
1. "Her being the personification of the Church"
2. "her intercessions" --probably this one is self explanatory so you don't need to explain this one.
3. "the graces she receives from Christ"
4. "the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God"

Also, what if Mary was given the protestant emphasis? What would I be missing out on in these specific points that you have made? You have to understand that I do not put any hope in Mary at all. I am thankful for her. I believe that she is also a believer who is in heaven. But, I don't understand any need for veneration of her. So what am I missing out on? This is a serious question to me. Thank you for taking the time.

By the way I love this: :duel
Not my attitude at all. I just am amused by it. It reminds me of a play that I saw. :duel :duel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:07 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4863
Location: Wherever my horse or pipe weed may take me.
Religion: Catholic
AaronL wrote:

Explain more clearly the following as they relate to our hope in Mary:
1. "Her being the personification of the Church"


She is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son, and the wife of the Holy Spirit.

She is what a human person ought to be in relation to God(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) par excellence.

She preceded all others in faith and is in all things the closest disciple to her Son.

AaronL wrote:
2. "her intercessions" --probably this one is self explanatory so you don't need to explain this one.


There are some considerations involving Biblical Theology which involve the her role as an intercessor. It involves an office in the Davidic Royal court, that of the Queen Mother.

AaronL wrote:
3. "the graces she receives from Christ"


Since Mary is the personification and the ultimate symbol of the Church(or the "New Israel"; cf. Rev 12), she is the "body of Christ and individually a member of it." She with the other saints in communion with Christ in heaven dispense the grace of God to those in the Church by the direction of God.

E.g.: I am a father. I have various gifts to dispense to my children. I could just randomly hand out the gifts or just leave them out for them to pick through on their own.
Or, I can give them to my wife who knows which gifts would benefit which child the most.

Now I know that this example is not perfect in relation to the subject. But it is evidence of a very simple idea, that it does no offense to the Father for His spouse or others to dispense the gifts which He provides for His children.

AaronL wrote:
4. "the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God"


Her actuality is our destiny. We should want to be as she is. She is proof that we can trust God in all things as well as proof of what that promise fulfilled is: the complete renewal of our bodies and souls by divine grace. That a life of faith and cooperation with grace through humble obedience to Jesus is not merely a "pipe dream" unattainable except for a few.

AaronL wrote:
Also, what if Mary was given the protestant emphasis? What would I be missing out on in these specific points that you have made?


Frankly to me protestantism is not merely an "emphasis" but a whole separate issue with its own soteriology.

What has been shown to me in discussions with other protestants and their objections about Mary is that it inevitably leads to them denying essential things about Jesus, namely regarding the Incarnation.

E.g.: Her title "Mother of God". Evangelicals I encounter always balk at this. They say things such as "she is the mother of Jesus the man" or "she is only the mother of his humanity/human nature," or that "God cannot be born."

Now, aside the fact that mothers do not give birth to "natures" but to persons, what they are essentially saying is that Jesus was not truly divine, despite the virgin birth.

They have no problem though, OTOH, in proclaiming the Jesus as God died on the cross at Calvary.

The relationship between Mary and Jesus, and the necessary link their relationship has in regards to the doctrine of the Incarnation, always exposes a falsehood someone has in their understanding of Christ.

It is as she proclaimed at the Annunciation: "My soul magnifies the Lord..."


AaronL wrote:
You have to understand that I do not put any hope in Mary at all. I am thankful for her. I believe that she is also a believer who is in heaven. But, I don't understand any need for veneration of her. So what am I missing out on? This is a serious question to me. Thank you for taking the time.


Throughout all of John's gospel he uses a literary device by never referring to himself by name, but by merely referring to himself as "the beloved disciple."

The purpose of this is to allow the reader to place him/herself in the place of John as that beloved disciple.

During that pivotal point at Jesus' crucifixion, John records this(John 19):
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

There is something too significant in this command, that it was Jesus' last command while hanging on the cross, suffering terrible pain and agony, dying of asphyxiation because of the fluid filling up his lungs and chest cavity, where every word said costs Him life, that He would issue these words as some of His final words, that he would command "the beloved disciple" to take His mother into his home.

That said...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:52 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1492
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Jon Snow wrote:

Since you regard Jesus as the angel Michael and not God the Son, its easy to see how you miss the fact that "God" includes the Trinity, includes Jesus.



Strawman. Some Adventists believe Michael is not an angel at all, but rather a title for Jesus. They are not Arians!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:31 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4863
Location: Wherever my horse or pipe weed may take me.
Religion: Catholic
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:

Since you regard Jesus as the angel Michael and not God the Son, its easy to see how you miss the fact that "God" includes the Trinity, includes Jesus.



Strawman. Some Adventists believe Michael is not an angel at all, but rather a title for Jesus. They are not Arians!


Fair enough. I retract it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:46 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:12 pm
Posts: 102
Religion: Baptist
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
But if God is glorifying us, then what does Mary have to do with our being glorified?


That's like asking, "what do your parents have to do with your birth, or raising you?


I'm not seeing your parallel. You will have to clarify.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:07 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:04 pm
Posts: 9
Religion: Anglican
Student wrote:
Eruvande wrote:


I can't (or won't) reach link. What is gist of the argument?


essentially he talks about Mary being easier to go to than Jesus, because Jesus is a big scary judge, and Mary is much more loveable and approachable. It's been a little while since I've listened to it and the conversation with my friend has moved on, but I'd still appreciate an answer for this particular issue for my own peace of mind, tbh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:37 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78016
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
That's a common Protestant myth, invented after the fact.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:06 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4863
Location: Wherever my horse or pipe weed may take me.
Religion: Catholic
AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
But if God is glorifying us, then what does Mary have to do with our being glorified?


That's like asking, "what do your parents have to do with your birth, or raising you?


I'm not seeing your parallel. You will have to clarify.


Look at salvation not from the traditional protestant soteriology(the born again experience), but from a more familial point of view.

(Or, heck, perhaps the "born again experience" can be helpful.)

I can assume that you are a "born again" christian, am I correct?

Assuming that I am, surely you believe that you believe. For the sake of argument maybe you can agree that the faith you possess was not a matter of "flesh and blood" but instead was a seed planted in you by God.

I think that there is a biological analogy which may be useful here. Since you have been implanted with the seed if faith you, like a fertilized human egg, you begin to multiply and grow.

But for that egg to really receive the nourishment it needs to really grow into the fullness in preparation for it's birth, it needs to find its way into the womb of a woman and implant itself there. If it doesn't, it will die.

I told you earlier that Mary is the mother of the Church and at the same time the icon of the Church.

Conversely the same is true of the Church, we refer to the Church as "she" and we call her "Mother Church".

She receives those implanted with the seed of faith from God, and then makes them "born again" through baptism where they begin their new lives as sons and daughters of God.

As in any human family you have both a father and a mother, so too in the family of God you have the Father (God) and a mother (the Church).

But family life, just as salvation, doesn't end at being born. We must also be raised, and that is the role of the Mother (both Mary and the Church) to raise you in the faith so that with our brothers and sisters we may be glorified.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:05 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:12 pm
Posts: 102
Religion: Baptist
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

Her being the personification of the Church her intercessions & the graces she receives from Christ, and the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God.


Jon,

Where does grace come from? Where is it dispensed from?

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Why does scripture show that is comes from God the Father and from Jesus the Son, But it does not tell us that it is dispensed from Mary or anyone else for that matter?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 4   [ 79 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Jump to: