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Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost?
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Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost

Someone else will have to take that up with you. I'm just commenting on the translation.

Author:  Gandalf the Grey [ Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost

walking4faith wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
Maybe its just me, but if OSAS was put into an image, that image would be of someone who has just had surgery to remove cancer from both of their lungs, yet who still sucks down a pack of cigarettes the day after because they've been "saved".

I'm sure you would agree if OSAS is true that your comment is insulting to God's Sovereignty. Do you believe Romans 8:28-35 says everyone God calls will be justified and will be glorified? What does that mean to you? It is the definition of OSAS!

And in Matthew 7:21-23 Christ Himself says, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

God intercedes for everyone He has saved, and no one can separate us!! "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all – how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died – more than that, who was raised to life – is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Firstly, you cannot quote this passage from chapter 8 of Paul's letter to the Romans apart from or without reference to the verses that immediately precede it(such as verse 1-27). If you "live according to the flesh"(I.e. you live a life of sin) then you are not living according to the Spirit and therefore the Spirit of Christ is not in you.

If you say that you have faith in Christ and live according to the flesh your faith is a lie.

Secondly, you cannot KNOW with certainty that you are saved, or it would not be faith but rather sure knowledge. God knows, we do not. To claim that you do know to be saved is the sin of presumption and a violation of God's sovereignty and a usurping of His authority to judge souls.

Even Paul was not so foolish to assert that he was "saved": "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore DO NOT PRONOUCE JUDGEMENT BEFORE THE TIME, before the Lord comes."(1 Cor 4:4-5).

OSAS violates that very imperative to not pronounce judgement before the Lord's coming.

Jon Snow wrote:
And if we're to include sola fide in this image, the person never actually had the surgery, they merely received the promise of the surgery, which will take place some time later.

What does Romans 1:17 mean to you? "or in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed – a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith.’

It doesn't matter what it means to me subjectively. What matters is what Paul means by it because he is the one who wrote it.

I know why Paul means by the Gospel, I know what Paul means by "faith".

What I don't know is how you think that this passage somehow serves to bolster your argument when I don't see how.

Jon Snow wrote:
And do you think that the Scripture, with all the ink spilt over it's pages about avoiding evil and doing good works because they follow us, really teaches that such things have no bearing on our salvation.

Avoiding evil and doing good works are the tree bearing fruit, showing evidence of the Holy Spirit living in someone who is saved. But we see where believers are given their heavenly rewards, if everything they've done on top of the foundation of having faith in Jesus is burned up as unworthy motives and deeds, they still will be saved, but have a loss of rewards. So it's the foundation of faith in Jesus that saved them. The works will be rewarded in our heavenly home.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved – even though only as one escaping through the flames."

You're missing the point. This passage of Scripture already assumes that 1) the person has faith and 2) that they are in Christ, meaning that they are incorporated into Christ through the Covenant He established. The "works" in the passage most immediately refer to the works of ministers who are helping build the Church, only those works which withstand scrutiny are the one which are kept. Those works that are "lost" are not evil works, they are not "sins", they are in themselves good works, just not good enough to be kept. Just like the Laws of the Old Covenant are good in themselves, but when stood next to the glory of the New Covenant they are essentially worthless.

OSAS in its essence insists that faithlessness and faith are the same thing. That one can "believe"(make a mere act of fiduciary belief) and therefore they are "saved" and that no amount of subsequent faithlessness on the part of the "believer" can or will separate them from that "salvation". That God in a real sense "owes" them that salvation, like the presumption that a cigarette addict is owed his health.

I can't think of anything so insulting to God's sovereignty than one who treats such a gift of infinite worth so cheaply so as to defile it or treat it with such contempt. That's what OSAS does in practice.

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