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 Post subject: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Why do Catholics say that salvation can be lost if they die while involved in some sort of sin, or have not been forgiven of some type of sin. I don’t believe we have to live in bondage, it is true that if we ask for forgiveness of sin, He (Lord) is just and righteous to forgive us of our sins. But when we believe we receive the Holy Spirit of Promise, we are sealed. We receive eternal life, we become the children of God. If it not based on works, but faith, that saves us, and it say He (Jesus) gives us eternal life, that He Saves us, not saving, but Saved when you believe. Jesus also said that He that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. And that we cannot be pluck out of His hand or the Fathers hand.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:15-18
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 7:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 13:39
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ephesians 1:13-14
3 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 4:8
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:27 pm 
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Here's the Catholic version of the same veritable quandary:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=166054

Although it might be a little difficult to get them to allow you to discuss the Bible unless you dont actually reference the Bible and use words like semipelagianism, scientia media, tautology, Thomistic and Gesundheit.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Mmmmmmmmmm ... poisoned well.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:41 pm 
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or alternatively... Tongue in cheek. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:46 pm 
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"Alternatively" is one of them new-fangled words. I don't trust it.

That thread, BTW, is not about the question the OP asked. That thread is about how God decides who is saved.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Same. Same.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Not even close.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Youre in the mood for a Donny brook today Isee.
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Dominicans:
God chooses whom He will save and whom He will pass over for salvation.
Then, for the Elect, He gives them additional graces so that they in fact desire to make use of the grace of salvation offered to them, and not only desire it, but carry through on the desire. This grace is not compelling, but it infallibly brings about free assent. Note that not every gets the gift of efficacious grace, so it's different in kind from merely sufficient grace.

______________________
Jesuits:
God choose whom He will save and whom He will pass over for salvation.
Then God, by means of scientia media (middle knowledge), knows how each person would respond to a hypothetical offer of grace. He then offers the Elect graces that He knows they will accept, and He offers the reprobate graces that He knows they will not accept.
_______________________

J316:
But when we believe we receive the Holy Spirit of Promise, we are sealed. We receive eternal life, we become the children of God. If it not based on works, but faith, that saves us, and it say He (Jesus) gives us eternal life, that He Saves us, not saving, but Saved when you believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Contextomy is a wonderful thing when you want to give the pretense of "divine authority" to your preferred opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:16 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Youre in the mood for a Donnybrook today Isee.
:)


You know what, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't realize just how incredibly rude and insulting you are being.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:47 pm 
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I did not realize that free will and predestination were apart of the Cannon of the Catholic Church, I have come to a similar conclusion to what the Catechism teaches. They are both biblical principles, but one is our responsibility and the other belongs to God. God gives us ears to hear, and eyes to see, but also tells us not to harden our hearts. He sent out His disciples and told them to preach the gospel to every living creature.

download:
A definition of predestination can be taken from the Catechism:
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.” – CCC, 600

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5-7
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Ephesians 1:10-14
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Matthew 13:20-23
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:10 pm 
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J316,

1) As one who holds to your general theological position (in fact, in my experience, I tend to be more of a purist on the things you are claiming than the vast, vast, vast majority of you folk who come on here and other sites claiming to be faith alone folks . . .); and

2) As one who has been an active member of this community for a pretty long time (all while holding to the position you're trying to defend);

May I offer you a piece of advice? I'd do so in the form of a simple question. Do you really think that the people here have never heard the verses you are citing? Do you think they've never encountered the position you're promoting, particularly in the really basic way you're doing it? It's rather insulting to the intelligence of the people you're trying to share your faith with. Please hear me -- I know you aren't trying to be insulting. But imagine if a Catholic were to come to you and quote Matt 16:18 at you and ask you could possibly not recognize the authority of the chair of St Peter? Regardless of whether we or Catholics have interpreted that verse correctly, my point is that you have (almost certainly) heard that verse more than a few times and have an interpretation of the verse that is consistent with your own beliefs. It would be insulting for the Catholic apologist to throw it at you as if you'd never come across it before.

I suggest you pay much more respect to the posters here. They know all those verses, and frankly, a lot of them could probably defend the view you've taken so well that you would swear that they are faith-alone adherents. And the reason is that they understand the position. Given all this, my real advice to you would be to ask sincere questions. Your posts have already demonstrated to pretty much everybody here that you've never encountered any (serious) Catholic responses to sola fide, and (AGAIN) as a sola fideist myself, I can tell you that you're faith own faith would be very much deepened if rather than trying to convince others of things like eternal security you spent time trying to understand the way that people here understand it and why they reject it.

Anyway, all of that is completely unsolicited. Feel free to ignore it as you like. But might I humbly also suggest that if you take it seriously, you'll find a deep benefit. In the words of a man far greater than I, I'm setting before you life and death, and it's up to you which you choose. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Quote:
John3:16: Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:39 am
Why do Catholics say that salvation can be lost if they die while involved in some sort of sin, or have not been forgiven of some type of sin. I don’t believe we have to live in bondage, it is true that if we ask for forgiveness of sin, He (Lord) is just and righteous to forgive us of our sins. But when we believe we receive the Holy Spirit of Promise, we are sealed. We receive eternal life, we become the children of God. If it not based on works, but faith, that saves us, and it say He (Jesus) gives us eternal life, that He Saves us, not saving, but Saved when you believe.

This is a common Protestant error.

St Paul specifically teaches that we are not “saved” but REDEEMED, for by His Crucifixion, death and Resurrection, Jesus has REDEEMED us. So long as one realises that we are not “saved” in this life, we have to listen to St Paul in that what is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). We don’t achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel.

Our salvation depends on our cooperation in believing and acting as best we know in doing good and avoiding evil. Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part to be saved. As St Paul teaches: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27).And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

As stated by Paul, what is lacking for our salvation is what only we can do, for the sake of His Body which is the Church. Christ was acting for the whole human race, not instead of, not as a substitute. “He bore our sins in His own Body on the Cross.” (1Pet. 2:29). What did Paul say must happen because Christ is the one mediator? “Supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men” (1Tim 2:1-5). Thus we are all called to be co-redeemers. [See Christ In Eclipse, Frank Sheed].


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:37 pm 
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My other piece of advice is not to read any post of the guy just above me. I haven't in years. Definitely made my stay here much better. In fact, if you must choose between the advice between these two posts, this one is by far the more important. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:16 pm 
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John3:16
Luther rejected seven books from the Bible because they did not conform to his selfist theological theories of justification by faith alone, his rejection of purgatory etc. It was Martin Luther in 1517 who removed seven books from the Old Testament (reducing the number to 39) Yet, for 15 centuries (1,500 years) Christianity recognized all 46 books of the O.T. The seven that are missing in the King James Version are found in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint) and were written between 250 and 150 BC.

There was nothing "reformed" by Luther but a revolt to suit his own whims and fancies. An example of the logical result was the capitulation to the immorality of contraception by the Anglicans at the Lambeth Conference in London in 1930 -- exposed and corrected the same year by the great Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI emphatically declaring contraception to be "a grave sin.” (# 56).

The tragedy of scattering is the thousands of sects today all initiated by those who felt they knew better than Christ and His Magisterium -- Simon Magus, Arius, Calvin, Henry VIII, Luther.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Back to the OP (as in Original Poster, not Dominicans :)):

A Catholic should agree that God brings to salvation all those and only those whom He chooses, for His own reasons beyond our comprehension, to bring to salvation. So if a passage says that salvation is certain for God's Elect or some such thing, a Catholic doesn't need to deny it. He might anyhow, because the passage might mean something other than what you think. But he doesn't have to deny it for fear that it undermines Catholic teaching. It is absolutely true that God infallibly brings about the salvation of those He has chosen.

The thread EC2 linked to is a discussion of theories of how He brings that about, not whether or not He does.

The question I see is whether or not a one-time profession of faith is enough for a person to be numbered among the Elect. Or is it something else?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:52 pm 
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John3:16
Further see:
http://www.radioreplies.info/site-searc ... ation&db=3
777. Please explain the doctrine of predestination of souls.
“To every man in this world God gives sufficient grace for salvation and every man can be saved by corresponding with it. Therefore, if any man is lost, it is his own fault. But there is a predestination for a specially chosen few to very special graces over and above the ordinary distribution, as in the case of St. Paul, who though a Pharisee, was predestined to his glorious Apostolate.”


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:07 pm 
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That answer is wrong, or at least incomplete. Predestination, properly understood, applies to all the Elect.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Salvation received when you truly believe? never lost
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Predestined for Freedom
Tim Staples
September 10, 2011

“It is God’s antecedent will that all be saved. However, as a consequence of God’s gift of free will, some reject God’s antecedent will. It then becomes God’s consequent will for that soul to go to hell. God’s will is accomplished and our free will, which is revealed in Scripture, is preserved. It is God’s predestined plan for us to have free will (CCC 600).”
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... or-freedom


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