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 Post subject: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:54 pm 
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I got into a discussion with a guy on Youtube and found out that he and another guy on the thread had a belief that the only way that a person has the holy spirit with them is if they have accepted Christ. I always thought that the holy spirit was something God has given everyone and that it leads people to Christ. Maybe I'm wrong? I had never thought of the issue before until they pointed this out.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:29 am 
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They are right. The Holy Spirit does lead people to Christ, but from the outside, so to speak.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:08 am 
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Could you explain what you mean? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:31 am 
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Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

The Holy Spirit comes and dwells in those who accept Christ only.

The Holy Spirit does lead unbelievers to Christ. He leads, but not come and dwell.

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:33 pm 
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That just doesn't make sense to me. I see examples of God's presence in people who don't identify as being Christian and sometimes see tendencies of antichrist spirit of people who claim to be and in all appearances seem to be Christian. I also don't see how God can work within a person's heart to guide them to Jesus in some external way. http://thesurprisinggodblog.gci.org/201 ... t.html?m=1


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:36 pm 
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I think believing only certain people receive the holy spirit is applying zero sum thinking to God. https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2 ... oly-spirit


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:37 pm 
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This was part of what I was saying to the guy I was talking to on youtube. I was trying to explain what I meant to him:

"you see the holy spirit as something that is only present when one comes to Christ and I see it as God’s presence in man that guides him there. As an example of what I mean. I don’t think that things like this can be produced by man without the direct involvement of God:

Moses http://www.italymagazine.com/sites/defa ... angelo.jpg


And this is just a detail. You can see the veins in his hand.
http://www.flo-flo.fr/wp-content/upload ... nge-01.jpg

And this: Pieta http://everypainterpaintshimself.com/ar ... _Color.jpg

Pieta detail:
http://www.effectiveui.com/blog/wp-cont ... Refine.jpg

This is marble. If you are doing a sculpture with clay and you make a mistake, you can rework the clay or fill in a gash but with marble, one slip of the chisel and you make a gash and that’s that. He (Michelangelo) created all of these perfect magnificent works of art that have influenced many people’s ability to see or feel closer to Christ. I mean, they didn’t have cameras in his time, :). What we know about Jesus’s appearance comes primarily through artists that I believe were guided by God to create that image. People wouldn’t know what he looks like without artists.

I'm assuming that you would feel that a gay person, not being saved, as they would relinquish a gay lifestyle if they were, does not have the holy spirit present in them. But these works were produced by Michelangelo-a gay man. He lived a gay lifestyle through much of his life and I think he adopted abstinence and became more spiritual when he was older but he lived a gay lifestyle most of his adult life while he was creating these pieces."


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:57 pm 
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What do you think the Holy Spirit does? What is His purpose?


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:39 pm 
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That's a very good question. I guess I see the holy spirit as being a tiny piece of God's spirit in everyone. And I guess I see it as something that guides people in different ways with many different things. I don't see how man can do and create all that man does without God's presence within them.
I don't see how the holy spirit can do very much being outside of a person. What does that mean? Does it float around a person waving invisible arms yel8ling "hey listen to me!" when entering a person's heart and having a direct connection would be more. . .efficient? And I don't think it possesses people like a demon controlling a person's actions either. Influence-not control.
If people don't have the holy spirit unless they have come to Christ, how did the Bible get written? Not all of the books were written after Christ. If it's God's word, how did these people write it without the holy spirit guiding them?


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:42 pm 
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I've just always assumed that it was in everyone my whole life. This is the first time I have heard of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Quote:
I guess I see the holy spirit as being a tiny piece of God's spirit in everyone. And I guess I see it as something that guides people in different ways with many different things. I don't see how man can do and create all that man does without God's presence within them.
Can I break this apart?

The Holy Spirit (who is a "he," by the way, not an "it") is not a tiny piece of God's Spirit and can't be broken into pieces. The Holy Spirit is God, just as the Father is God and the Son is God. I'll skip the "in everyone" part because that's your conclusion.

The Holy Spirit does guide people in all sorts of ways.

Man can do all sorts of things without God's presence within. It is part of God's glory that He is able to create beings (us) who can do so many things without having to rely directly on Him to do them.

As far as the Old Testament goes (I know I'm out of order with your questions), the Holy Spirit was active before the time of Christ. Only after the time of Christ (probably after Pentecost) is it necessary to have Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. But it wasn't just anyone who had the Holy Spirit even before Christ. The authors of Scripture were devout and obedient Jews, using all of the helps God gave them.

The Holy Spirit's assistance to the soul is what is known as "actual grace." (The Holy Spirit's abiding presence, along with the Father and the Son, is known as "sanctifying grace" or "habitual grace."

Actual graces can present themselves in many ways; sometimes the Spirit suggests thoughts to us; sometimes other people act as His agents and say things to us that are helpful; sometimes we gain insight just by observing the world around us; sometimes we're aware of a longing that we can't name and can't fulfill.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:31 am 
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I thought a Christian has the indwelling of the entire Trinity too though. Correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:29 am 
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Yes. Thus the parentheses in the next to last paragraph.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Thank you very much for your insights. Sorry it took all day to reply. Was very busy.

I'm still not sure though. What about someone like Gandhi? He seemed to imbue Christ's teachings. He believed in truly turning the other cheek. And what about something like this? Acts 2:17 ''In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Again, people don't need the Holy Spirit to do some good things, even startlingly good things. That's an ability God gave us.

Acts 2:17 (and Joel 2:28, which it's quoting) are referring to something that God is going to do, not to a current state of affairs.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:13 pm 
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Ok. Thank you very much.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:11 pm 
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AstridK wrote:
Ok. Thank you very much.



It's important to note that we can never know who is and isn't in heaven (other than declared Saints), but we can say with absolute certainty that those who are in Heaven are there because Jesus brought them there. I'd like to think many I've known, loved, and admired are in Heaven, but whether they're there or not doesn't depend on the works they did here, but whether they accepted the Grace given to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:50 pm 
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AstridK wrote:
Thank you very much for your insights. Sorry it took all day to reply. Was very busy.

I'm still not sure though. What about someone like Gandhi? He seemed to imbue Christ's teachings. He believed in truly turning the other cheek. And what about something like this? Acts 2:17 ''In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Can you save yourself by being 'trying enough'?


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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:05 pm 
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A lot of people accuse me of being trying, j/s.... :troll

In all seriousness, though, a modern-day analogy I've heard before is that man is "hard-wired" to seek out God. Even if someone is never exposed to the Gospel, there is still something within him (or, rather, the influence of the Holy Spirit from without) that drives him to seek out knowledge of something greater than himself.

Fr. Kenobi, as a tech-wise cleric, would you assess the validity of that analogy?

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 Post subject: Re: Does everyone have the holy spirit in them?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:32 pm 
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The desire for God is not a direct effect of the Holy Spirit. Like other things in this thread, it's built-in to humanity and doesn't require the Holy Spirit. Success in the endeavor does, and the Holy Spirit will assist anyone who makes that endeavor, but the desire itself is a natural human longing.


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