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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:43 pm 
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They must think it's relevant. Otherwise they'd just be Baptists.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Truthfully, it would probably be better if I said 'Calvinist' rather than 'Baptist', The Baptist movement is Arminian in its theology, and Arminianism is just a subset of Calvinism. Modern American evangelicalism is nothing if not Calvinist.

No, but that's as good a myth as any, I suppose.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They must think it's relevant. Otherwise they'd just be Baptists.

More fundamentally, it would only be relevant if Doom were right. But he isn't, which is what makes his Protestant apologetic so much more entertaining. :)


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:53 pm 
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You get extra points for use of the subjunctive.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 pm 
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theJack wrote:
More fundamentally,

Did you do that on purpose?


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:20 am 
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Sadly no. I'm not that clever. But now I'll keep an eye out for a chance to use that someday when talking about the distinction. :)


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:36 pm 
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Doom wrote:

Truthfully, it would probably be better if I said 'Calvinist' rather than 'Baptist', The Baptist movement is Arminian in its theology, and Arminianism is just a subset of Calvinism. Modern American evangelicalism is nothing if not Calvinist.


That isn't right at all. That sounds like something from "Catholicism and Fundamentalism." In fact I'm almost sure of it because it was that line that made me stop reading the book.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Faith0312
It's interesting also that Arnold Lunn in Now I See, (Sheed & Ward, 1955) could quote from the Anglican Vicar of Oddington, Rev S Herbert Scott, that St Peter and his successors were recognised as the supreme judges in matters of faith by a long succession of great Eastern saints, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Denys, Athanasius, Chrysostom, and others (p 218).

In his epistle to the Romans (around 110), St Ignatius of Antioch refers to the Church which, “presides in the land of the Romans” remarking that he could not command them the way Peter and Paul did – clearly referring to the leadership of Peter in Rome. (Reference in Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius 1988, p 202-3).

Peter often spoke for the rest of the Apostles (Mt 19:27; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69). The Apostles are sometimes referred to as "Peter and his companions" (Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7; Acts 2:37). Peter's name always heads the list of the Apostles (Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13). Finally, Peter's name is mentioned 191 times, which is more than all the rest of the Apostles combined (about 130 times).

After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church's important "firsts." Peter led the meeting which elected the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

As Dr Warren H Carroll in A History of Christendom, The Foundation of Christendom Vol 1 testifies, in The Pontificate of St Peter, 30-67:
30-37 head of the Church in Jerusalem
42-49 first sojourn in Rome
49-50 in Jerusalem for the Apostolic Council
62-67 third sojourn in Rome; canonical Epistles of Peter; Mark with Peter in Rome
67 martyrdom in Rome and burial at the Vatican


Last edited by Thomist on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
They must think it's relevant. Otherwise they'd just be Baptists.


You seem to have completely missed my point, which is that regardless of the historical origins, their theology pretty much already is Baptist. I don't say this casually, I have direct personal experience with the Evangelical Free Church because when I was an undergraduate I was involved with a Campus Crusade for Christ chapter that was connected to a local Evangelical Free Church, and theologically, I found them virtually indistinguishable from the Baptists.

As for why they don't call themselves 'Baptist', it is mainly because to them, 'Baptists' are a denomination, but, according to them, they are not a denomination.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
Faith0312
It's interesting also that Arnold Lunn in Now I See, (Sheed & Ward, 1955) could quote from the Anglican Vicar of Oddington, Rev S Herbert Scott, that St Peter and his successors were recognised as the supreme judges in matters of faith by a long succession of great Eastern saints, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Denys, Athanasius, Chrysostom, and others (p 218).

In his epistle to the Romans (around 110), St Ignatius of Antioch refers to the Church which, “presides in the land of the Romans” remarking that he could not command them the way Peter and Paul did – clearly referring to the leadership of Peter in Rome. (Reference in Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, Ignatius 1988, p 202-3).

Peter often spoke for the rest of the Apostles (Mt 19:27; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69). The Apostles are sometimes referred to as "Peter and his companions" (Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7; Acts 2:37). Peter's name always heads the list of the Apostles (Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13). Finally, Peter's name is mentioned 191 times, which is more than all the rest of the Apostles combined (about 130 times).

After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church's important "firsts." Peter led the meeting which elected the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

As Dr Warren H Carroll in A History of Christendom, The Foundation of Christendom Vol 1 testifies, in The Pontificate of St Peter, 30-67:
30-37 head of the Church in Jerusalem
42-49 first sojourn in Rome
49-50 in Jerusalem for the Apostolic Council
62-67 third sojourn in Rome; canonical Epistles of Peter; Mark with Peter in Rome
67 martyrdom in Rome and burial at the Vatican


Always glad to see Lunn mentioned, but this citation is the only one you seem to use. You could add the remainder of p. 218 and 1/4 of p.19, too. From either the 1955 reprint, or the 1933 1st edition.

Or some other Lunn. He's all too forgotten.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Quote:
GKC Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:15 pm
Always glad to see Lunn mentioned, but this citation is the only one you seem to use. You could add the remainder of p. 218 and 1/4 of p.19, too. From either the 1955 reprint, or the 1933 1st edition.

Why not simply post from Lunn? Too many here just jibe.
Quote:
Or some other Lunn. He's all too forgotten.

Spot on.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
Quote:
GKC Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:15 pm
Always glad to see Lunn mentioned, but this citation is the only one you seem to use. You could add the remainder of p. 218 and 1/4 of p.19, too. From either the 1955 reprint, or the 1933 1st edition.

Why not simply post from Lunn? Too many here just jibe.
Quote:
Or some other Lunn. He's all too forgotten.

Spot on.



So, expose the folk to him.

Soft pedal the spiritualism related stuff, but there's lots more.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM9BR55nA2U



I like Lutheran Satire, but I've never been a fan of that particular video, which assumes that the mantle of 'reform' belongs solely to Luther and the Lutherans and that it is Luther's way or the highway. Sorry, but all Luther did was open the door a crack, once he did that, he can't stop anyone else from coming through the door. Surely, if Luther has the right to say that the Catholic Church is wrong, then others surely have the right to say that Luther himself was wrong.


That is the message Hans is espousing here, but I think his vid shows the inevitable landslide Luther started...


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:20 pm 
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I think that the mention of Martin Luther is the Catholic corollary to Godwins law.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:27 am 
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That sounds like something Hitler would say.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:07 am 
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:laughhard


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:31 am 
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Faith0312 wrote:
"The Catholic Church compiled the Scriptures into the Bible, but The Catholic Church and Roman Catholic Church are two different entities."

How do I answer This person on twitter? He doesn't like links because "much more is learned obviously from a whole book then from a single link" but I still use them!

Renee


The Catholic Church consists of 23 Sui Juris Eastern and Western Churches in full communion with each other and The Holy See. The Latin Rite Church is one of these.


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:36 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I think that the mention of Martin Luther is the Catholic corollary to Godwins law.

We could call it "Etsy's Law" :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:55 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:
From the first time I saw one many years ago, until today... I have always though that a "Second Baptist Church" was the oddest name for a church. Not that churches would ever admit to being in competition with each other, but who would want to be known as "Second"?

Why not pick the street name, or the area of town, or a local landmark?


There's a Presbyterian church in the Squirrel Hill District of Pittsburgh called the Sixth Presbyterian Church. :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Back to the OP, I would assume your friend is referring to common lie about how the RCC seized to be the "true" church under the rule of Constantine...I have heard this nonsense many times. The belief is that when Constantine ended the Roman persecution of Christians, the Catholic Church became a pagan religion, accepting pagan roman traditions.

All you simply need to do is look at the life of Constantine to argue this point. Start there


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 Post subject: Re: CC VS RCC
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
From the first time I saw one many years ago, until today... I have always though that a "Second Baptist Church" was the oddest name for a church. Not that churches would ever admit to being in competition with each other, but who would want to be known as "Second"?

Philly has a (midly famous) "Tenth Presbyterian Church".


Which possesses an original Tiffany stained glass window. Large window. Very beautiful. In the front left-hand corner. I was there for a conference several years ago and took notice of it. Between the sessions, I went to the pastor, who at that time was James T. Boice, and asked him if it was a Tiffany He admitted that it was.

Tiffany windows have a very distinct pattern to them.


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