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 Post subject: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:02 pm 
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Hey, I am in an exchange with a guy that has been all over the map with objections to the veracity of God and Christianity. I narrowed him to the point that he cant believe the Bible because there is no way to definitively prove that The Bible is not a forgery or a collection of forgeries. He said that it could have just as well been written by Satan and there is no way to know. Got anything I can reference or any logic to put that to bed?


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:10 pm 
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There was no body in the tomb on Easter morning.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:31 pm 
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"If they will not believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if someone should rise from the dead."


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:52 pm 
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1. What evidence is there that the Bible is a forgery?
2. Why should this evidence be accepted?
3. If it is a forgery, what and where are the real documents?

Put the onus on him to demonstrate that the forgery hypotheses is worth considering. After all, billions of people for hundreds of years have believe the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:44 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:
]3. If it is a forgery, what and where are the real documents?


How does a document being a forgery imply that there a 'real documents'?

The Hitler Diaries are a forgery, that doesn't mean that there are real Hitler Diaries out there somewhere. The Mormon papers are a forgery, that doesn't mean that there are real Mormon Papers out there somewhere. The memo that Dan Rather tried to use during the 2004 election to 'prove' that George W Bush went AWOL from the National Guard in the 70's doesn't mean that there is a real memo out there somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Fair enough, but put the onus on the other. In the end people like this will "what if" a question to death and never be satisfied.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:26 pm 
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My approach would be to tell him that he is guilty of intellectual laziness. There is literally nothing on the face of the Earth that is easier than just say "I don't believe it" or "you're lying" and then not bother to provide any arguments or a defense of any kind.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:30 pm 
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I don't believe it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:22 pm 
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He seems to be persuaded by the fact that the archeology is hard to fake as well as independent accounts by historians like - Tacitus and Josephus.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:09 am 
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I would just keep asking him questions.

Perhaps, in you trying to understand his position, something will "click" for him and God will use that as an opening.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:54 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
He said that it could have just as well been written by Satan and there is no way to know. Got anything I can reference or any logic to put that to bed?


Youtube'd anything by Daniel Wallace. Here's one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiWKifMu6f8

And chek the video link by youtube account Inspiring Philosophy on my thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=164584


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:30 pm 
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If you will consider these following posts as starting points for further investigation, I think you may be successful with your conversation. They are all from the same source but have varying degrees of subject matter and comprehensive information that can be further analyzed with a few simple google strokes.


http://clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
http://clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
http://clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:53 pm 
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beng wrote:
Youtube'd anything by Daniel Wallace. Here's one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiWKifMu6f8

And chek the video link by youtube account Inspiring Philosophy on my thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=164584


Nothing wrong with Daniel Wallace's work, but all he really does is try to show that the text of the New Testament has not been tampered with. He can't prove who wrote it, or that what was written is true.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:32 pm 
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If it's not been tampered with than it's prbably written by who they claim the authors are, ain't it?

As Brant Pitre said in his book The Case for Jesus Christ, the gopel were never anonymus (contrary to many sholars such as Bart Ehrman). The scroll with the, for the sake of convenient, "first page," always have the word "gospel according to ...."

The witness of the fathers (external evidence) is also unanimous (Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew and so on).

So, treat them like affidavits and you would find that the story is consistent and not fabricated. Then, if what they're saying is true, Catholicism is true.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:16 pm 
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beng wrote:
If it's not been tampered with then it's probably written by who they claim the authors are, ain't it?



On what basis is that argument valid? No one disputes that the text of the alleged 'Book of Abraham' 'discovered' by Joseph Smith and revered by Mormons has never been tampered with, that doesn't mean that Smith's claim that it was written by the patriarch Abraham is someone true.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:23 pm 
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But there's not a nearly contemporaneous testimony about the authorship of the "Book of Abraham," whereas there is widespread early testimony attributing the Gospels to their commonly-accepted authors, and no attempts to attribute them to anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:45 am 
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Quote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 ….he cant believe the Bible because there is no way to definitively prove that The Bible is not a forgery or a collection of forgeries. He said that it could have just as well been written by Satan and there is no way to know. Got anything I can reference or any logic to put that to bed?
The historian Eusebius in his Church history, 4.3, 1.2, tells us that writing about 123 A.D., apologist Quadratus cited those in his day who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus of Nazareth – prime witnesses – long after the miracles, crucifixion and death of the Son of God. No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it -- not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.

His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42; Jn11:47). [Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].

The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Doom wrote:
beng wrote:
If it's not been tampered with then it's probably written by who they claim the authors are, ain't it?



On what basis is that argument valid? No one disputes that the text of the alleged 'Book of Abraham' 'discovered' by Joseph Smith and revered by Mormons has never been tampered with, that doesn't mean that Smith's claim that it was written by the patriarch Abraham is someone true.


I don't know about that book. But if its go back to when Abraham lives, then you might have a case. If it's not, you don't.


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 Post subject: Re: The Question of the Veracity of Scripture ...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:34 pm 
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I'm not sure if this helps, especially if your friend is not disposed at all to religion ... but Christianity, which hinges on the backbone of the bible is the only religion ... no other major world religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism, or even … Islam has no "person", in our case savior, who was prophesied.

The bible has prophecy of the Christ that extends thousands of years before His coming and that coming was foretold over millenniums of generations ... this is all contained in the bible as veracity to His potentiality (in the pre Christ days) and confirmed by His birth as foretold.

No one else in any religion was prophesied to come, only Christ, only in the bible. The bible is a true and verifiable text as such.


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