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 Post subject: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:25 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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http://www.catholic.com/blog/karl-keati ... on-part-ii

Karl Keating suggests that in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, the goats are Christians, too. He contends that they are members of the Kingdom on Earth who failed in their Christian duty, and therefore are condemned.

I guess I've never seen it that way. I've always understood it to be anyone who failed in corporal works of mercy - believer or not (as opposed to unfaithful Christians).

I'm wondering about the Church's teachings here, or reliable exegesis.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:34 am 
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There is no official Church teaching on this passage. I would suggest that the sheep are all the Elect and the goats are the reprobates, both Christian and non-Christian.


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:44 am 
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I always thought what Fr H. is saying. The goats are those who have fallen away and that can include people who sit in Church.


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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:21 pm 
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Keating does seem to think that the parable is addressing the Kingdom only, and thus Christians only. I think he's wrong about that.


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Keating does seem to think that the parable is addressing the Kingdom only, and thus Christians only. I think he's wrong about that.

I had difficulty seeing it as describing only Christians.


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:14 pm 
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If I recall correctly there are passages in the bible where "goats" is analogous to good people (instead of the wicked).


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:16 am 
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I haven't been here to talk with you guys in a while. I'm now a writer at Got Questions; I actually just celebrated 10 years with them! Since this is the Apologetics room, thought I'd post the article we have on this...

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

Something that hit me about your question was Matthew 7:21-23. That means some of the goats will have done "works", but Jesus will still tell them He never knew them. Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Never means never, so that means they aren't considered Christians. They were never His, even though they thought by their actions they were.


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:25 am 
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walking4faith wrote:
I haven't been here to talk with you guys in a while. I'm now a writer at Got Questions; I actually just celebrated 10 years with them! Since this is the Apologetics room, thought I'd post the article we have on this...

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

Something that hit me about your question was Matthew 7:21-23. That means some of the goats will have done "works", but Jesus will still tell them He never knew them. Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Never means never, so that means they aren't considered Christians. They were never His, even though they thought by their actions they were.


Hi Walking4Faith!
Haven't heard from you for quite some time! But that was on CARM, was it not?

Anyway, I appreciate the post. I'm also going to visit 'Got Questions', haven't heard of that site before.

God bless you,
-BHM


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:44 am 
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Our Lady's Gladiator
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you will rarely get a Catholic answer on that site...even from those who profess to be Catholic :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: The goats are Christians, too?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:20 pm 
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MySweetLord wrote:
http://www.catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/heaven-isn-t-earned-but-hell-is-salvation-part-ii

Karl Keating suggests that in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, the goats are Christians, too. He contends that they are members of the Kingdom on Earth who failed in their Christian duty, and therefore are condemned.

I guess I've never seen it that way. I've always understood it to be anyone who failed in corporal works of mercy - believer or not (as opposed to unfaithful Christians).

I'm wondering about the Church's teachings here, or reliable exegesis.

Thanks.


I'd suggest the goats are not true Christians, but could be self-proclaimed "Christians". The devil has sown tares in with the wheat but the slaves were told not to gather them up lest they harm the wheat...the tares and wheat will continue until the harvest (Mt 13:24-30), further explained in vv. 36-43...the tares are those who practice unrighteousness.

This clearly means God has to change the elect (regeneration) so they won't practice unrighteousness. Of course when they stumble on occasion they can confess and receive forgiveness and cleansing of all unrighteousness (1 Jn 1:9). This counters the protestant "imputed righteousness", a justification totally separated from behavior. Supposedly when God "sees us", He really "sees Jesus perfect life of obedience" lived in our place. No need for post-conversion confession to remove the guilt of unrighteousness. So it wouldn't be "I was hungry and you fed Me", but "I was hungry and you are credited with My feeding the hungry for you" due to your faith..."faith alone".

Really??!!??!!

There is one "faith alone" in Scripture...Jas 2:24...justified... "not by faith alone". I'm not pelagian (the Catholic Church condemned this long ago). The change (regeneration) and resulting fruit are TOTALLY gifts from God.

Gal 6:7-9

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Jesus doing good for us in our place? (Protestants are correct)

God regenerating us to do good...works prepared beforehand to those whom God chose to save (irregardless of their fallen state and lack of works)? Catholic are correct. The works are "looked at" on judgment day to separate. Judgement day isn't "salvation"...salvation is God choosing whom to save among the fallen. The choice isn't made by the works of the fallen. The separation on judgment day is made by the works given to the elect...but this isn't God choosing to save...that was made beforehand.

I humbly suggest that Catholics are correct.

-BHM


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