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 Post subject: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:16 am 
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Watching a video claiming that James was the first bishop of Rome, and so was the first leader. The video also referenced Galatians 1:18-20. Any thoughts out there?


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:23 am 
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Do you mean Jerusalem, rather than Rome?


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:24 am 
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I wish, but it said "Rome." It also said historically the first bishop period.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:28 am 
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There is absolutely no evidence that James was ever in Rome, or indeed, that he ever left Palestine.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:31 am 
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However, one common objection to the idea that Peter and Paul 'founded' the Church in Rome is that there were already Christians there before either of them arrived, which is why St. Paul wrote to them. The rebuttal to this is to point out that is meant by 'founding a Church' in a particular city or region is not to put Christians there where there never were Christians before, but to establish a bishopric. There were Christians in Rome before Peter and Paul arrived, however, there was no 'Church' because there was no bishop.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:36 am 
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What evidence do they give that James was the first Bishop of Rome and the first bishop "period."?

The Galatians passage refers to Paul going to Jerusalem and he refers to "any of the other apostles" which indicates to me that there were other leaders and, in this passage at least, no hierarchy is indicated. Although an inference could be drawn that Paul considered Peter to be the leader because he came to Jerusalem specifically to see "Cephas" (Peter).


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:37 am 
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Here's the YouTube link:

https://youtu.be/LKOoPcHxPhU


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:41 am 
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Three hours! Too much to watch. Please direct us to the relevant five minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:06 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:
What evidence do they give that James was the first Bishop of Rome and the first bishop "period."?

The Galatians passage refers to Paul going to Jerusalem and he refers to "any of the other apostles" which indicates to me that there were other leaders and, in this passage at least, no hierarchy is indicated. Although an inference could be drawn that Paul considered Peter to be the leader because he came to Jerusalem specifically to see "Cephas" (Peter).



Yeah I just looked that up and noticed it too. I am guilty of doing this work late which is why I am asking for help. :-/ I have a feeling this class is going to push me to work harder to dispel the junk along with the possible good, compared with the non-Catholic students who will accept the info as given. I appreciate your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:07 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:
Three hours! Too much to watch. Please direct us to the relevant five minutes.


:). For now, the first ten.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:21 pm 
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billsd13 wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
Three hours! Too much to watch. Please direct us to the relevant five minutes.


:). For now, the first ten.



Minute 39-41:45. Authority as a movement instead of already established.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:24 pm 
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billsd13 wrote:
billsd13 wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
Three hours! Too much to watch. Please direct us to the relevant five minutes.


:). For now, the first ten.



Minute 39-41:45. Authority as a movement instead of already established.


and it continues to minute 44 and so on. Never mind this is going to be too time consuming. God bless, and have a great rest of the Lord's day.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:25 pm 
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My response to every questionable reference would be: I don't think that is quite correct. What is the specific* primary source for that information and where can I access that primary source?

*By specific I mean the kind of complete footnote or endnote citation that will enable you to find the writing/section/chapter/paragraph/line and read it for yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:02 pm 
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billsd13 wrote:
Watching a video claiming that James was the first bishop of Rome, and so was the first leader. The video also referenced Galatians 1:18-20. Any thoughts out there?

At 10:00-10:45, the narrator states, "The actual relationship between James and Jesus is a matter of debate... James is the leader of the Jesus movement in Jerusalem." This is also where the Galatians passage is quoted. No mention of James as bishop of Rome.

While obviously not the final word from a Catholic perspective, it seems a reasonable presentation when one is trying to incorporate a Protestant and secular view. This section and the one about Ignatius later on need a good dose of, "Well, that's not the only way to look at it."


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:44 pm 
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Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Peter founded Antioch, but his successors there are not pope.

Rome was the final seat of Peter. Even were it ruled by James first, Rome is not the head because it is Rome, but because Peter was its bishop. If you look at the way early Christians referred to Rome's authority, what was important to them was quite literally that Peter (and Paul) were martyred there, the land was fertlized with their blood and the Church of Rome possesses the relics of Peter, which symbolize also the "relic" of his office.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:57 pm 
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One of the usual arguments for the primacy of St. James is that he speaks last at the Jerusalem Council. One Catholic way to look at this is that he was head of the opposition group and was acknowledging that he had been in the wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:48 pm 
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I think James the Great was the first bishop of Jerusalem. Acts 12:1-2 showed King Herod killed him there so he was the first apostle martyr. Three apostles, James, Peter and John were among three apostles taken to the transfiguration mountain.

He is now highly venerated at Santiago, Spain.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:00 pm 
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I thought Stephen was the first martyr.


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:34 pm 
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Bombadil wrote:
I thought Stephen was the first martyr.

First martyr yes. James was the first APOSTLE martyred


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 Post subject: Re: Peter or James as first leader after Christ
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:05 pm 
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billsd13 wrote:
Watching a video claiming that James was the first bishop of Rome, and so was the first leader. The video also referenced Galatians 1:18-20. Any thoughts out there?


I didn't see the video, but are you thinking since James was the main speaker at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) that he was the 'main apostle'?

My response is just because someone is in the limelight doesn't mean he's the one who was given charge. Often leaders sit on the sideline and let others run the show. The leaders are ultimately responsible for calling out errors, etc. Most leaders I respect are soft-spoken courteous people who don't have the 'gift of gab.' Just because James was in the limelight in Acts 15 does not mean he was given charge over the others. Jesus told Peter "tend My sheep" (Jn 21:17).

-BHM


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