Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 80 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:21 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6200
Religion: Christian
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
So is the rock Christ or Peter's faith in Christ? The OCA explanation is incoherent in its attempt to assign one and only one meaning to "rock."


Which leads back to my question above:


The Orthodox Church rejects God??


Please understand that I know that is not the case as I am sure you do. I am just following the trail in the line of logic presented above.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:29 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8680
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
... This makes my point as well as Jesus point in the Book of Revelation as I mentioned above.

OCA.org: In Matthew 16:18, the word “rock” refers to Peter’s confession of faith...

Please note. This verse is one of the prime polemics in Catholic-Orthodox discussions on primacy and it also figures into the intra-Orthodox discussions on the same topic (Cf. Alexander Schmemann and John Meyendorff).

My reason for pointing out the OCA interpretation was only to highlight that the Orthodox think differently than Catholics concerning the passage, and they too can use the Bible for their own purposes.

The practical outcome of their interpretation of this passage in the 20th and 21st century, however, has been to demonstrate that Orthodoxy really only functions properly - i.e., One Bishop in One City - in areas where it has been established for centuries, which comes down to the Eastern Mediterranean, Russia, and the Balkan Peninsula.

And THIS, at least to me, speaks volumes as to how incorrect their understanding is - not only of the Matthew verse, but of primacy in general.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:34 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6200
Religion: Christian
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
So is the rock Christ or Peter's faith in Christ? The OCA explanation is incoherent in its attempt to assign one and only one meaning to "rock."


Which leads back to my question above:


The Orthodox Church rejects God??


Please understand that I know that is not the case as I am sure you do. I am just following the trail in the line of logic presented above.



It seems that for Catholics ... the whole of Christianity stands or falls based on their interpretation of this one passage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:27 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:31 am
Posts: 831
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
EtcumSpiri22-0
It seems that for Catholics ... the whole of Christianity stands or falls based on their interpretation of this one passage.

It is not just “one passage” – it is the specific intention of Christ to found what He personally describes as “My Church” with the FOUR PROMISES, and SOLE AUTHORITY to Peter ALONE, clearly stated in Matthew, Luke and John as quoted.

The Eastern Orthodox POV ‘that in Matthew 16:18, the word “rock” refers to Peter’s confession of faith, and not to Peter himself’, is clearly mistaken.

The definitive teaching is found in Ecumenical Council Vatican II in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium).
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... um_en.html

ON THE HIERARCHICAL STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH AND IN PARTICULAR ON THE EPISCOPATE
CHAPTER III
22.
Extract
:
The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*)

See:
CCC 881. The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock [Cf. Mt 16:18-19; Jn 21:15-17]. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head" [LG 22; cf. Mt 18:18; Jn 20:21-23]. This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope. [My emphases].

So -- yes, the integrity of Christianity stands on the foundation established so clearly by Christ – His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with St Peter as the Vicar of Christ.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:25 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:


The Orthodox Church rejects God??


There's a drought going on, it would be prudent to refrain from burning straw men.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:28 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 301
Religion: Orthodox
TreeBeard wrote:
That said, the nature of the primacy of the Ecumenical Patriarch is a MAJOR issue in Orthodoxy.

There was some discussion, but it seems that Ecumenical Patriarch has agreed that he doesn't have any kind of primacy. According to Pre-Conciliar Document "Organization and Working Procedure of the Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church", signed by all Patriarchs except for Antiochian,

"By the grace of the Holy Trinity, the Holy and Great Council is an authentic expression of the canonical tradition and diachronic ecclesiastical practice—through the work of the synodal system—in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and is convened by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, with the consent of Their Beatitudes, the Primates of all the universally recognized autocephalous Local Orthodox Churches; and it shall be comprised of members appointed to each Church delegation."

So Ecumanical Patriarch can't convene Council without "the consent of Their Beatitudes, the Primates of all the universally recognized autocephalous Local Orthodox Churches", and so, his "primacy" is a matter of convenience only.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:16 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4881
Religion: Catholic
Vadim wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
That said, the nature of the primacy of the Ecumenical Patriarch is a MAJOR issue in Orthodoxy.

There was some discussion, but it seems that Ecumenical Patriarch has agreed that he doesn't have any kind of primacy. According to Pre-Conciliar Document "Organization and Working Procedure of the Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church", signed by all Patriarchs except for Antiochian,

"By the grace of the Holy Trinity, the Holy and Great Council is an authentic expression of the canonical tradition and diachronic ecclesiastical practice—through the work of the synodal system—in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and is convened by His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, with the consent of Their Beatitudes, the Primates of all the universally recognized autocephalous Local Orthodox Churches; and it shall be comprised of members appointed to each Church delegation."

So Ecumanical Patriarch can't convene Council without "the consent of Their Beatitudes, the Primates of all the universally recognized autocephalous Local Orthodox Churches", and so, his "primacy" is a matter of convenience only.


So the East has finally done away with their tortured notion of primacy altogether.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:52 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8680
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
Question: Are the decisions of the 2016 Holy and Great Council binding on the entire Orthodox Church, even those who did not attend the June Council?

Answer: Yes.

Source. 16Jun2016 statement from the Press Office of the Ecumenical Patriarch, HERE, see esp. 1:20-3:01.

*************

Yeah... Well... We'll see how that sits with Patriarch Kirill.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:09 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4881
Religion: Catholic
This is all a very revealing series of events on just how broken eastern ecclesiology is.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:23 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8680
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
Agreed.

Were I a "true believer" I would lament in sackcloth and ashes that the church established by God is such a poor witness in the world. As it is - as only an interested observer, looking in from the outside, I think this is a clear indicator that - at lest as far as ecclesiology goes, the Orthodox model is not what God ultimately had in mind for the present era.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:19 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
TreeBeard wrote:
Question: Are the decisions of the 2016 Holy and Great Council binding on the entire Orthodox Church, even those who did not attend the June Council?

Answer: Yes.

Source. 16Jun2016 statement from the Press Office of the Ecumenical Patriarch, HERE, see esp. 1:20-3:01.

*************

Yeah... Well... We'll see how that sits with Patriarch Kirill.


By that logic, then I guess that the 14 ecumenical councils that the Orthodox reject because they didn't participate in them are also binding. Bet they don't like that conclusion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:34 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8680
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
HalJordan wrote:
Vadim wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
That said, the nature of the primacy of the Ecumenical Patriarch is a MAJOR issue in Orthodoxy.

There was some discussion, but it seems that Ecumenical Patriarch has agreed that he doesn't have any kind of primacy... So Ecumanical Patriarch can't convene Council without "the consent of Their Beatitudes, the Primates of all the universally recognized autocephalous Local Orthodox Churches", and so, his "primacy" is a matter of convenience only.

So the East has finally done away with their tortured notion of primacy altogether.

I don't think so.

Given the Ecumenical Patriarch's long standing interpretation of Canon 28 (of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, Chalcedon 451 AD) - that the EP, and no other Patriarch, has jurisdiction over all Orthodox Churches in Western Europe, the Americas, and other regions beyond the geographical boundaries of already established Orthodox Churches - I think that the EP's aspirations of primacy, of being THE undisputed leader of Orthodoxy, are well established and still very much active.

A fine example of this POV is seen in a 2009 speech given by the Ecumenical Patriarch's Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod (the Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis) to the students of Hellenic College Holy Cross, Brookline, MA, HERE:

"With regards to the United States, the submission to the First Throne of the Church, that is, to the Ecumenical Patriarchate is not only fitting with the American society and mentality but also it opens up the horizons of possibilities for this much-promising region, which is capable of becoming an example of Pan-Orthodox unity and witness."

"The Mother Church of Constantinople safeguards for the Orthodox Church in America those provisions that are needed for further progress and maturity in Christ."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:09 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 301
Religion: Orthodox
HalJordan wrote:
This is all a very revealing series of events on just how broken eastern ecclesiology is.

I think that on the whole, this Council was very successful. Some difficulties has always taken place throughout the history of the Church. The present problems (I'm not even sure if there are any) are like "little cloud and will swiftly pass away", according to Patriarch of Serbia, Eirinaios.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:15 pm 
Offline
Eminent
Eminent
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:59 am
Posts: 16631
Religion: Католик
Thanks for presenting the web site, which is available in Greek, English, Russian and French, Vadim:

https://www.holycouncil.org/home


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:22 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4881
Religion: Catholic
TreeBeard wrote:
HalJordan wrote:
Vadim wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
That said, the nature of the primacy of the Ecumenical Patriarch is a MAJOR issue in Orthodoxy.

There was some discussion, but it seems that Ecumenical Patriarch has agreed that he doesn't have any kind of primacy... So Ecumanical Patriarch can't convene Council without "the consent of Their Beatitudes, the Primates of all the universally recognized autocephalous Local Orthodox Churches", and so, his "primacy" is a matter of convenience only.

So the East has finally done away with their tortured notion of primacy altogether.

I don't think so.

Given the Ecumenical Patriarch's long standing interpretation of Canon 28 (of the Fourth Ecumenical Council, Chalcedon 451 AD) - that the EP, and no other Patriarch, has jurisdiction over all Orthodox Churches in Western Europe, the Americas, and other regions beyond the geographical boundaries of already established Orthodox Churches - I think that the EP's aspirations of primacy, of being THE undisputed leader of Orthodoxy, are well established and still very much active.

A fine example of this POV is seen in a 2009 speech given by the Ecumenical Patriarch's Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod (the Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis) to the students of Hellenic College Holy Cross, Brookline, MA, HERE:

"With regards to the United States, the submission to the First Throne of the Church, that is, to the Ecumenical Patriarchate is not only fitting with the American society and mentality but also it opens up the horizons of possibilities for this much-promising region, which is capable of becoming an example of Pan-Orthodox unity and witness."

"The Mother Church of Constantinople safeguards for the Orthodox Church in America those provisions that are needed for further progress and maturity in Christ."


That was more a comment about what Vadim posted. If it's just a primacy of convenience, then there's no primacy at all, whether papal or "first among equals" or whatever other formulation is proposed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:11 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8680
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
HalJordan,

It sounded like you were agreeing with Vadim, or accepting his statement as correct.

***************

Vadim,

The fact that the Ecumenical Patriarch may assume a collegial tone in one specific instance does not mean that he "has agreed that he doesn't have any kind of primacy" at all. Just ask His Beatitude Hieronymos II, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece about the Churches in Northern Greece, or see the Archimandrite Lambriniadis speech I cited above.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:42 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 8680
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
An insightful and stinging critique of the Russian, Bulgarian, Georgian, and Antiochian last-minute decisions to not attend the Council, with most of the criticism focused on Russia.

The author is Sergei Brun, a historian and lecturer at the Museum of the Russian Icon in Moscow. Brun notes two things that are the background to the recent "manifestation of disunity and rupture in the Orthodox Church:"

1. The Russian Church is quick to condemn the Ecumenical Patriarch for his "papal ambitions," but thinks nothing of the reality that the Patriarch of Moscow transfers clergy from place to place without consulting anyone and retains "complete, dictatorial freedom from all forms of financial or administrative accountability."

2. The various Orthodox Churches are more concerned about having their way in geographic jurisdictional disputes than they are concerned about demonstrating unity to the world.

Source. Pneumatophobia: The Orthodox Church in the Wake of the Great and Holy Council, HERE.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:41 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:15 am
Posts: 4881
Religion: Catholic
My point is that, if Vadim is correct, the Orthodox have to admit they've been blowing smoke on the whole primacy issue for more than a few centuries.

As to Brun's #2, that's been at least partly, if not mostly, the case pretty much since the original Islamic subjugation of the East.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:35 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 301
Religion: Orthodox
Pope Francis has commented the results of the Holy and Great Council:

    The next question, posed by a Russian correspondent, concerned his opinion of the Pan-Orthodox Council.

    “A positive judgement”, he replied. “A step was made forward, not one hundred percent, but a step forward. … The mere fact that these autocephalous Churches have gathered in the name of Orthodoxy to look upon each others' faces, to pray together and speak and maybe even joke together … that is extremely positive. I thank the Lord. At the next one there will be more of them”.

"At the next one there will be more of them" -- here he implies that

1) The Holy and Great Council has made a decision that Councils will be convened regularly:

    During the deliberations of the Holy and Great Council the importance of the Synaxes of the Primates which had taken place was emphasized and the proposal was made for the Holy and Great Council to become a regular Institution to be convened every seven or ten years.

2) According to the previous decision of the Church of Serbia and of the four absent Churches, quoted below, the four absent Churches will sign the decisions of the Holy and Great Council during one of these later Councils which will be convened regularly, or even earlier. If needed, they may propose some amendments to be considered by the future Council.

a) Church of Serbia:

    our pending gathering at Crete, with the help of God, would be regarded <…> at the most, as the inaugural phase of the whole synodal process, which is to be completed in subsequent continuation, in the next phase, when all disagreements are removed in favor of unity of mind and consensus of Churches.

b) Church of Russia (Statement of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, 13 June 2016):

    The Bishops’ Council of the Russian Orthodox Church, which took place on February 2-3, 2016 <…> expressed its satisfaction with the introduction of the necessary amendments and additions to the Holy and Great Council’s draft documents and having them preliminarily approved on the whole, <…>

"having them preliminarily approved on the whole" -- so if the pre-conciliar version of the decisions of the Holy and Great Council were approved on the whole, then their final version will eventially be approved too. There is no reason to panic.

Pope Francis: "A step was made forward, not one hundred percent, but a step forward" -- I would say, a huge step forward.

Pope Francis: "The mere fact that these autocephalous Churches have gathered in the name of Orthodoxy to look upon each others' faces, to pray together" -- not only this; they've made new important decisions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:12 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6200
Religion: Christian
Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I thought the 2 were inseparable according to the RCC


Where do you get this stuff?

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul- ... -sint.html



EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The two what?



The primacy of the Bishop of Rome and the primacy of the Catholic Church.


Doom,
Your link talks about unity. It assumes the primacy of the Bishop of Rome and the primacy of the Catholic Church.

If the two are, in fact, separable, as you seem to imply ... then why this thousand+ year old issue of primacy of the Pope over the Orthodox Churches... Or that of primacy within/ between the separate expressions of Orthodoxy. Why would it even be a thing?/ concern?


Thomist brought some clarity to my question/ understanding when he quoted:

CCC 881. The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock [Cf. Mt 16:18-19; Jn 21:15-17]. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head" [LG 22; cf. Mt 18:18; Jn 20:21-23]. This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 4   [ 80 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: