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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Well said, and I completely agree. It is--going back to my original attempt at a contribution to this thread--the proper way to respond to the attempt at an argument that was the OP.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:47 pm 
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Vadim wrote:
Doom wrote:
Pray tell, who is the Protestant or Orthodox equivalent of Mother Theresa? I dare assert that there isn't one.

Previous Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia Alexy II (not an "equivalent", because we don't consider people who were outside of the Church to be saint). He is on my avatar. Roman Catholic author Angelica Carpifave wrote a book of her conversations with him. In the foreword to this book she had quoted words of condolence which were said to her on occasion of death of Alexy II, and had confirmed these words as being fully correct:

"You loved His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II as if he was your own father, and revered him as a saint."

This is his visit to Jerusalem and conversation with Patriarch of Jerusalem Diodorus.


And speaking of KGB...


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:35 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Pray tell, who is the Protestant or Orthodox equivalent of Mother Theresa? I dare assert that there isn't one.

Lottie Moon jumps right to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:50 am 
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theJack wrote:
Doom wrote:
Pray tell, who is the Protestant or Orthodox equivalent of Mother Theresa? I dare assert that there isn't one.

Lottie Moon jumps right to mind.


Well, to some folk. And around Christmas, too.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:40 am 
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Rolland & Heidi Baker


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:19 am 
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theJack wrote:
Doom wrote:
Pray tell, who is the Protestant or Orthodox equivalent of Mother Theresa? I dare assert that there isn't one.

Lottie Moon jumps right to mind.


Who is that? :scratch: Part of what it means to be 'the Protestant equivalent of Mother Theresa' is being renowned and admired worldwide for your holiness. Being a saint isn't something that is supposed to be secret, a true saint is 'a city on a hill' that is seen by everyone. So, to name someone who is equivalent to Mother Theresa you have to name someone who is just as famous and has had just as big an impact on the world, that's kind of hard to do, not many people win the Nobel Peace Prize.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:20 pm 
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You are literally the only Church-going person I've ever talked to who doesn't know who Lottie Moon is. Her holiness is not in the least in doubt, and when she was around, I'm pretty sure there was no such thing as the Nobel Peace Prize.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:55 pm 
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Well, to be fair, there are probably a lot of Protestants - let alone Catholics - who don't know who Lottie Moon is. The only reason I know is because I came from the SBC with their annual "Lottie Moon Christmas Offering."

I have, over the years, attended at least a half-dozen non-Baptist Protestant churches of various denominations at Christmas time and don't recall ever seeing or hearing anything about her in those churches.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:04 pm 
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Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
Doom wrote:
Pray tell, who is the Protestant or Orthodox equivalent of Mother Theresa? I dare assert that there isn't one.

Lottie Moon jumps right to mind.


Who is that? :scratch: Part of what it means to be 'the Protestant equivalent of Mother Theresa' is being renowned and admired worldwide for your holiness. Being a saint isn't something that is supposed to be secret, a true saint is 'a city on a hill' that is seen by everyone. So, to name someone who is equivalent to Mother Theresa you have to name someone who is just as famous and has had just as big an impact on the world, that's kind of hard to do, not many people win the Nobel Peace Prize.

Mother Theresa lived unusually recently to be a saint, well known because she lived during our lifetimes, in our modern age of mass communication. If she had lived during the 19th century, would she even be as well-known as Lottie Moon? She certainly wouldn't have won the Nobel Peace Prize.

If you are looking for a Protestant or Orthodox equivalent of Mother Theresa, who is just as famous, who has had a big impact on the world, who has won the Nobel Peace Prize, who is a "saint" and therefore dead, you are looking at a very narrow window of history.

I can immediately think of two Protestant equivalents of Mother Theresa, renowned and admired worldwide for their holiness, one of whom has won the Nobel Peace Prize, who is just as famous, who has had a big impact on the world.

However neither of them are dead, and are therefore not yet regarded as "saints":

Bishop Desmond Tutu and Billy Graham.

I am sure there are many others, both in this age and ages past.

It depends on your definition of "saint".

As well as non-Catholic Christians who can be regarded as saints, there are also many non-Christian saints, through the ages, and alive today, who I'm sure would not fit into your narrow definition of "saint".


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:20 pm 
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http://www.irisglobal.org/ministry-locations

http://www.irisglobal.org/

In partnership with:
http://mattermore.org/


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:24 pm 
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Reinhard Willi Gottfried Bonnke is a German Pentecostal evangelist, principally known for his gospel missions throughout Africa. Bonnke has been an evangelist and missionary in Africa since 1967. Bonnke has had 75 million recorded decisions for Christ made during his crusades. He has preached the gospel to more people than anyone in history.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:35 am 
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What about St Obama ! He is well known & no doubt considered holy amongst left wing idealogues.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:48 am 
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Rabble rouser!


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:59 am 
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TreeBeard wrote:
Rabble rouser!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPG_Y-_BZI


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:02 am 
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theJack wrote:
You are literally the only Church-going person I've ever talked to who doesn't know who Lottie Moon is. Her holiness is not in the least in doubt, and when she was around, I'm pretty sure there was no such thing as the Nobel Peace Prize.



I had to check. For the last 11 years of her life, there was.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:05 am 
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GKC wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
Rabble rouser!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPG_Y-_BZI

Rebel? I always thought it was rabble.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:23 am 
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TreeBeard wrote:
GKC wrote:
TreeBeard wrote:
Rabble rouser!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPG_Y-_BZI

Rebel? I always thought it was rabble.


Not when Duane does it.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:27 am 
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I defer to your superior acquaintance with colloquialisms.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:11 am 
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TreeBeard wrote:
I defer to your superior acquaintance with colloquialisms.



Or with Duane, at least.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:02 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Experiences specific to Orthodoxy are not reported as the general rule in any of the situations I referred to.


:!:

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The reason I mentioned the alternative of house churches is because it is expanding as a viable alternative to large institutional churches, as people look for ways to protect their families from the problems you originally posted.


So notice that person whom I've quoted in my initial post -- a former Roman Catholic priest who converted to Orthodox Catholic Church -- says that there is no such a problem in the Orthodox Catholic Church. Or that such sins are extremely rare.

Besides, there are other problems nowadays, such as wide spread of pornography. If even religious children will not go to the Church, -- they, still, will not be in complete isolation, they will communicate with atheist children, who, then, may have bad influence on religious children. So in order to be able to resist to this bad influence, children must go to Church.

Yet another problem is such thing as the so-called "sexual education" of children in schools. Consider, for example, the recent decision in the USA to allow to so-called "transgenders" to go to whichever kind of toilet they want. That is, if a boy decided that he is a girl who was trapped in male body, then he is allowed, according to this decision, to go to women's toilet.

But I don't know what you should do with this problem, which is really serious. You should consult with local Orthodox priests. Maybe you should teach children at home and not allow them to go to school. I've read of stories of people who migrated from USA to Russia because of this problem.


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