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 Post subject: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:28 pm 
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To the Protestants on this board, what reasons are holding you back from becoming Catholic? Or simply, how come you're not Catholic?


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:55 pm 
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Questions like this always seem to lead to the thread being locked.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:33 pm 
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Yea, I can see why that would happen. Apologetics is not always the most spiritually beneficial exercise, in fact it can be just the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:55 pm 
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Nathan M. wrote:
To the Protestants on this board, what reasons are holding you back from becoming Catholic? Or simply, how come you're not Catholic?

I call myself a Christian now, but not a practicing Catholic, though I was baptised and brought up as a Catholic.

There are some doctrines which apparently a practicing Catholic is supposed to believe, but quite honestly I don't know if these doctrines are true or not. For example, how am I supposed to know if Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin or not, i.e. if Jesus was born in the only way human beings are ever born, or if it was a "virgin birth" which seems biologically extremely implausible, but perhaps not impossible. How am I expected to know?

Also, there are some things which I know within my heart are right and good, but which most other Catholics (I would guess, I haven't asked them all) would regard with suspicion, though perhaps (for want of a better word) the most 'liberal' or 'progressive' Catholics would regard as fine and good.

For example, I have recently been introduced to a non-religious teacher who teaches techniques for finding inner peace (in this life, he makes no claims to know anything about the next life, he leaves that to religion, he is not a religious teacher) which I have found extremely beneficial in my practical day-to-day life and given me joy in my heart and helps me cope with many difficulties in my life. But I feel that most Catholics would think there is something wrong with a Catholic having a non-religious teacher who teaches how to experience inner peace and joy.

There is a narrow-mindedness about the Catholic religion which I find off-putting. I am still waiting to find out how tolerant the Catholic Church is. There seems to be a battle in the Church about this currently, and I'm still waiting to see how it pans out. Pope Francis is persuading me that the Catholic Church is for people like me, not just for 'holy' people who conform rigidly to traditional teachings.

You did ask!


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:03 pm 
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May I suggest, Daisy, that you are going at it exactly backwards? You are starting with a set of beliefs and saying, "If the CC conforms to (or even merely permits) those beliefs, I'll be Catholic." But the central premise of the CC is that she, as the body of Christ under the head of the vicar of Christ (the pope), is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. So even if the CC came out tomorrow and made a formal dogma out of every single thing you believed, you still wouldn't be able to say you are Catholic, precisely because you have rejected the central premise. In other words, with all due respect, you are asking the CC to bow to your authority before you bow to hers, which is self-contradictory.

The only issue you, and anyone else considering Catholicism, needs to decide is whether or not Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself. If He did--if that is true--then you obligated to accept all that she says. In fact, if you disagree with something she says, then it is only evidence that it is you, not she, who has failed to properly understand reality. If though, it is not true that Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself, then you'd be a fool to claim to be Catholic.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:18 pm 
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TheJack wrote:
May I suggest, Daisy, that you are going at it exactly backwards? You are starting with a set of beliefs and saying, "If the CC conforms to (or even merely permits) those beliefs, I'll be Catholic." But the central premise of the CC is that she, as the body of Christ under the head of the vicar of Christ (the pope), is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. So even if the CC came out tomorrow and made a formal dogma out of every single thing you believed, you still wouldn't be able to say you are Catholic, precisely because you have rejected the central premise. In other words, with all due respect, you are asking the CC to bow to your authority before you bow to hers, which is self-contradictory.

The only issue you, and anyone else considering Catholicism, needs to decide is whether or not Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself. If He did--if that is true--then you obligated to accept all that she says. In fact, if you disagree with something she says, then it is only evidence that it is you, not she, who has failed to properly understand reality. If though, it is not true that Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself, then you'd be a fool to claim to be Catholic.

That's mostly the very rigid version of Catholicism, which I don't claim to believe. But, Jack, you must know that that's not the only version of Catholicism.

Of course Jesus founded the Catholic Church, few Christians would deny that, but it's everything after that which isn't so clear. Catholics differ in their beliefs about Catholicism. There are even many Catholics who disagree with Pope Francis. So it's not as simple and as clear-cut as you have suggested.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:30 pm 
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n the contrary daisy... many many Christians deny that our Lord founded the Catholic Church...


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:37 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
n the contrary daisy... many many Christians deny that our Lord founded the Catholic Church...

Okay, you may be right. I thought that most Christians (who aren't Catholic) would believe that Jesus initially founded the Catholic Church, but it became corrupt.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:42 pm 
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well, all i can tell you is that the non-Catholics i speak with on facebook and have spoken with on youtube would rather die than to confess that the first century Church was Catholic


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:50 pm 
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Daisy wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
n the contrary daisy... many many Christians deny that our Lord founded the Catholic Church...

Okay, you may be right. I thought that most Christians (who aren't Catholic) would believe that Jesus initially founded the Catholic Church, but it became corrupt.

You are very mistaken.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:13 pm 
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TheJack wrote:
May I suggest, Daisy, that you are going at it exactly backwards? You are starting with a set of beliefs and saying, "If the CC conforms to (or even merely permits) those beliefs, I'll be Catholic." But the central premise of the CC is that she, as the body of Christ under the head of the vicar of Christ (the pope), is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. So even if the CC came out tomorrow and made a formal dogma out of every single thing you believed, you still wouldn't be able to say you are Catholic, precisely because you have rejected the central premise. In other words, with all due respect, you are asking the CC to bow to your authority before you bow to hers, which is self-contradictory.

The only issue you, and anyone else considering Catholicism, needs to decide is whether or not Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself. If He did--if that is true--then you obligated to accept all that she says. In fact, if you disagree with something she says, then it is only evidence that it is you, not she, who has failed to properly understand reality. If though, it is not true that Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself, then you'd be a fool to claim to be Catholic.


Great reply. I agree whole-heartedly.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:39 am 
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TheJack wrote:
Daisy wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
n the contrary daisy... many many Christians deny that our Lord founded the Catholic Church...

Okay, you may be right. I thought that most Christians (who aren't Catholic) would believe that Jesus initially founded the Catholic Church, but it became corrupt.

You are very mistaken.


You piqued my curiosity. Care to expand?


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:16 am 
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As always I look at Scripture. It is the plumb line by which all else must be measured. There are beliefs required by the Catholic church that are not supported by Scripture. I realize that the immediate Catholic response might be that the Bible is not open to personal interpretation. I would respectfully respond by stating that the Catholic definition of personal interpretation ...is Catholic.
The concern that I have in a topic such as this is that it will turn into an
offense/ defense game around the word heretic and eventually the ref calls the game on account of acid rain. People here ask for honesty but seem to take offense very quickly with honesty.
Catholicism is one facet of a Venn diagram that includes all of Christianity.
I am not just speculating. There are now more Christians in China than in the United States. China, is estimated to have over 160 million Christians just as Christian as the Pope ... that are threatened with or now suffer persecution that we can only pray that we never have to experience ... and most of that 160 million+ are other than Catholic ... of which there are an estimated 12 million.

http://www.billionbibles.org/china/how- ... china.html


http://www.wsj.com/articles/catholic-ch ... 1407830489


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:45 am 
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Daisy wrote:
TheJack wrote:
May I suggest, Daisy, that you are going at it exactly backwards? You are starting with a set of beliefs and saying, "If the CC conforms to (or even merely permits) those beliefs, I'll be Catholic." But the central premise of the CC is that she, as the body of Christ under the head of the vicar of Christ (the pope), is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. So even if the CC came out tomorrow and made a formal dogma out of every single thing you believed, you still wouldn't be able to say you are Catholic, precisely because you have rejected the central premise. In other words, with all due respect, you are asking the CC to bow to your authority before you bow to hers, which is self-contradictory.

The only issue you, and anyone else considering Catholicism, needs to decide is whether or not Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself. If He did--if that is true--then you obligated to accept all that she says. In fact, if you disagree with something she says, then it is only evidence that it is you, not she, who has failed to properly understand reality. If though, it is not true that Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself, then you'd be a fool to claim to be Catholic.

That's mostly the very rigid version of Catholicism, which I don't claim to believe. But, Jack, you must know that that's not the only version of Catholicism.

Of course Jesus founded the Catholic Church, few Christians would deny that, but it's everything after that which isn't so clear. Catholics differ in their beliefs about Catholicism. There are even many Catholics who disagree with Pope Francis. So it's not as simple and as clear-cut as you have suggested.

I agree with Jack. That sounds like a pretty good explanation. I can't see how that is a very rigid version of Catholicism. I also don't know that the Church has taught that there are other versions of Catholicism.

On a mostly related note about how you talk about these Catholics that accept all sorts of strange teachings not held by the Church, I heard a Protestant preacher on the radio yesterday talking about hypocrits.

Someone approached him and said there are hypocrites in your church.

Oh!? Do tell! One of the apostles was a hypocrite. I bought a dozen eggs yesterday, one of those was a hypocrite!

His point was basically so what? It doesn't change the message.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:50 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
TheJack wrote:
Daisy wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
n the contrary daisy... many many Christians deny that our Lord founded the Catholic Church...

Okay, you may be right. I thought that most Christians (who aren't Catholic) would believe that Jesus initially founded the Catholic Church, but it became corrupt.

You are very mistaken.


You piqued my curiosity. Care to expand?

The typical view of church history from non-Catholics (in my reading of a great many church history texts to say nothing of the many other theological texts) is that the Catholic church developed over the course of between 400-600 years, and that the development and indeed invention of the Catholic Church was the development and invention of the doctrine of papal supremacy.

Obviously, I'm not presenting that as an argument against Catholicism here. I'm just saying that's the normal non-Catholic interpretation of church history: Catholicism is nothing more than a particular theological belief that developed over the course of several centuries and then imposed itself over all other Christians in an imperialistic fashion.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:59 am 
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Daisy wrote:
TheJack wrote:
May I suggest, Daisy, that you are going at it exactly backwards? You are starting with a set of beliefs and saying, "If the CC conforms to (or even merely permits) those beliefs, I'll be Catholic." But the central premise of the CC is that she, as the body of Christ under the head of the vicar of Christ (the pope), is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. So even if the CC came out tomorrow and made a formal dogma out of every single thing you believed, you still wouldn't be able to say you are Catholic, precisely because you have rejected the central premise. In other words, with all due respect, you are asking the CC to bow to your authority before you bow to hers, which is self-contradictory.

The only issue you, and anyone else considering Catholicism, needs to decide is whether or not Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself. If He did--if that is true--then you obligated to accept all that she says. In fact, if you disagree with something she says, then it is only evidence that it is you, not she, who has failed to properly understand reality. If though, it is not true that Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself, then you'd be a fool to claim to be Catholic.

That's mostly the very rigid version of Catholicism, which I don't claim to believe. But, Jack, you must know that that's not the only version of Catholicism.

Then what other version exists?


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:21 pm 
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Ec2 wrote:

Quote:
As always I look at Scripture. It is the plumb line by which all else must be measured.


Ok, so then please provide the scripture reference in support of this assertion.

EC2 wrote:

Quote:
There are beliefs required by the Catholic church that are not supported by Scripture. I realize that the immediate Catholic response might be that the Bible is not open to personal interpretation. I would respectfully respond by stating that the Catholic definition of personal interpretation ...is Catholic.


The immediate Catholic response is more likely to be that the bible is not the sole rule of faith & that the church is the "pillar and bullwark of the truth." 1Tim 3:15.

Perhaps you can give us all your private interpretation of :

"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,…" Ephesians 3:10-11.

And when you do, please explain why we should pay heed to your interpretation & not the CC. Have you been given divine authority? If you have, can you show us where in scripture it says so, i expect to read something like :

"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through"..... EC2

EC2 wrote:

Quote:
The concern that I have in a topic such as this is that it will turn into an
offense/ defense game around the word heretic and eventually the ref calls the game on account of acid rain.People here ask for honesty but seem to take offense very quickly with honesty.


The only thing we take offense to is your being disingenuous & evasive as I am sure you will demonstrate by failing to respond to the above questions I have posed to you.

Quote:
Catholicism is one facet of a Venn diagram that includes all of Christianity.


The only facet containing the fullness of truth. The rest of Christianity is a derivative of Catholicism comprising of "churches" who have run away with the Catholic Bible & ripped out of it whatever conflicts with their self proclaimed authority to make known their own version of "the manifold wisdom of God."


Quote:
I am not just speculating. There are now more Christians in China than in the United States. China, is estimated to have over 160 million Christians just as Christian as the Pope ... that are threatened with or now suffer persecution that we can only pray that we never have to experience ... and most of that 160 million+ are other than Catholic ... of which there are an estimated 12 million.


I not sure what your point is here but if you really want to play the numbers game you would do well to keep in mind that there are more Muslims than Protestants.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:33 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Daisy wrote:
TheJack wrote:
May I suggest, Daisy, that you are going at it exactly backwards? You are starting with a set of beliefs and saying, "If the CC conforms to (or even merely permits) those beliefs, I'll be Catholic." But the central premise of the CC is that she, as the body of Christ under the head of the vicar of Christ (the pope), is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. So even if the CC came out tomorrow and made a formal dogma out of every single thing you believed, you still wouldn't be able to say you are Catholic, precisely because you have rejected the central premise. In other words, with all due respect, you are asking the CC to bow to your authority before you bow to hers, which is self-contradictory.

The only issue you, and anyone else considering Catholicism, needs to decide is whether or not Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself. If He did--if that is true--then you obligated to accept all that she says. In fact, if you disagree with something she says, then it is only evidence that it is you, not she, who has failed to properly understand reality. If though, it is not true that Jesus founded the CC and invested in her the authority she claims for herself, then you'd be a fool to claim to be Catholic.

That's mostly the very rigid version of Catholicism, which I don't claim to believe. But, Jack, you must know that that's not the only version of Catholicism.

Then what other version exists?

Don't you think that the so called "progressive" or "liberal" cardinals, bishops, priests and theologians have a different version of Catholicism than the so called "conservative" or "traditionalist" cardinals, bishops, priests and theologians?


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:34 pm 
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Perhaps we can avoid thread lockage by letting the OP get answers to the question he asked. EC2 has told us why he's not Catholic: He believes that the Catholic Church requires belief in things that are not scriptural. We can argue about whether or not that is a good criterion, but we have to take him at his word that this is the reason he isn't Catholic.

Any others, from anyone else?


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 Post subject: Re: Why not be Catholic?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:50 am 
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Yes thank you Fr.

Would you guys mind starting new threads for discussing topics brought up by Protestants and non-Catholics in this thread?


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