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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:45 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

Her being the personification of the Church her intercessions & the graces she receives from Christ, and the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God.


Jon,

Where does grace come from? Where is it dispensed from?

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Why does scripture show that is comes from God the Father and from Jesus the Son, But it does not tell us that it is dispensed from Mary or anyone else for that matter?


All grace comes from God through Jesus.

But you forget that the Apostles dispensed grace by the laying of of hands.

Peter healed the man who begged at the temple.

Even before Christ's crucifixion His disciples healed people, they dispensed grace, in His name.

Surely God doesn't need us to dispense His grace, but He does want us to so as to fulfill His plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:01 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

Her being the personification of the Church her intercessions & the graces she receives from Christ, and the promise of with her being glorified, body and soul, by God.


Jon,

Where does grace come from? Where is it dispensed from?

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

Why does scripture show that is comes from God the Father and from Jesus the Son, But it does not tell us that it is dispensed from Mary or anyone else for that matter?


All grace comes from God through Jesus.

But you forget that the Apostles dispensed grace by the laying of of hands.

Peter healed the man who begged at the temple.

Even before Christ's crucifixion His disciples healed people, they dispensed grace, in His name.

Surely God doesn't need us to dispense His grace, but He does want us to so as to fulfill His plan.

Jon,
You have a good point--I must admit. I think that grace is a very broad term--not just something that refers to saving grace. God causes it to rain on the evil people as well as righteous people. He is gracious to all. Also 2Corinthians 8:6 is another example of the generous offering.
Thanks for your comment and correction.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:02 am 
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http://www.salvationhistory.com/audio-r ... oly_queen3

This is an audio discussion between Scott Hahn and Mike Aquilina, based on Dr. Hahn's book, Hail Holy Queen. It's full of biblical references, and references to early Christian witness about Mary. I think it's very helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:25 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
"Mary is our hope"? Hope for what? Can you find any scripture that shows that we should have any hope in Mary?


Where in Scripture does it say that everything for our Faith must be explicitly mentioned in Scripture?

Jon,

Sorry that it took so long to get back to you on your question. I will be slow from time to time. But feel free to ask and re-ask any questions. I don't want to avoid them. I might have to say that I don't know the answer to some of your questions. But I will do the best that I can with the time that I have.

Mary:
If we are to believe that you are correct concerning where we find "everything for our Faith" then we could easily say that God just did not cover the topic of Mary in the Scriptures--at least not to the extent that the Catholic Church does. We had to wait until further revelation came along (i.e. Church tradition).

But scripture is NOT silent concerning this topic as you imply. You think I am arguing from silence. 1Timothy 2:5 There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; That word "one" is clearly saying that there is not two or three or more. You say that I am arguing from silence, but you insist on arguing as if the Bible were silent. The argument from this passage is not only that Jesus is necessary. It is also that Jesus is exclusive. You can not get around this verse by saying that I can go through Mary to get to Jesus to get to God. That is more than one. And when you try to argue that we pray for others--thus Mary prays for us, you are not giving consideration to what this passage is saying. You are dismissing it.

Why would the Scripture point us to Christ, Christ, Christ over and over again and leave out all the great ways that we could get to Christ? How would you like a road map like that? If you have to get from point A to point Z, but parts B - F are not shown on the map, the map would be worthless. It also does not make sense that the Holy Spirit is going to breath out only part of the way to address God the Father.

"our Faith . . . mentioned in Scripture"
When Paul wrote to Timothy concerning the Scriptures he said, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Timothy 3:14-17

The word perfect means complete. Timothy lacked nothing. He had what he needed. Where do you find someone being made complete by anything apart from Scripture? If you argue tradition, then it must be a tradition acquired by the Scripture. If not, Jesus warned of tradition that does not line up with the Scripture. Again, the Scripture presents a complete road map--not a partial map.

There are many passages in the Bible about prayer. I am sure that you are aware of that. But what do those verses emphasize? How could we have so many verses on prayer and the various roles of the Triune God, but not have anything about Mary being our Mediatrix? This is an official title that the Roman Catholic Church has for her.

Thanks for your posts. I will look forward to reading your reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:48 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Mary:
If we are to believe that you are correct concerning where we find "everything for our Faith" then we could easily say that God just did not cover the topic of Mary in the Scriptures--at least not to the extent that the Catholic Church does. We had to wait until further revelation came along (i.e. Church tradition).


What we know about Mary is based upon facts of Church history and reflections on what was revealed in Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition.

Sacred Tradition is not "further revelation." Its part and parcel of the whole of the Deposit if the Faith.

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."(2 Thes 2:15)

AaronL wrote:
But scripture is NOT silent concerning this topic as you imply. You think I am arguing from silence. 1Timothy 2:5 There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; That word "one" is clearly saying that there is not two or three or more. You say that I am arguing from silence, but you insist on arguing as if the Bible were silent. The argument from this passage is not only that Jesus is necessary. It is also that Jesus is exclusive.


It says that Jesus is exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father. But the interaction between Jesus and His Church, which IS His Body, is another matter entirely. :D

AaronL wrote:
You can not get around this verse by saying that I can go through Mary to get to Jesus to get to God. That is more than one.

Then Paul is negating his own words when he writes these words written just before your proof-text:
[1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You're saying that people shouldn't intercede(or mediate by their prayers). So every time you ask someone to pray for you or that you pray for others you are in fact violating the gospel, according to your logic.

AaronL wrote:
And when you try to argue that we pray for others--thus Mary prays for us, you are not giving consideration to what this passage is saying. You are dismissing it.


Hardly. The passage as a whole speaks against what you are claiming it does.

AaronL wrote:
Why would the Scripture point us to Christ, Christ, Christ over and over again and leave out all the great ways that we could get to Christ? How would you like a road map like that? If you have to get from point A to point Z, but parts B - F are not shown on the map, the map would be worthless. It also does not make sense that the Holy Spirit is going to breath out only part of the way to address God the Father.


Scripture was never intended to make Christians, Aaron.

AaronL wrote:
"our Faith . . . mentioned in Scripture"
When Paul wrote to Timothy concerning the Scriptures he said, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Timothy 3:14-17

The word perfect means complete. Timothy lacked nothing. He had what he needed.


Two things:
1) Nowhere does that passage say that Scripture is complete, or sufficient, just that Scripture is profitable to make Timothy complete, and "thoroughly furnished unto all good works"(nothing about faith alone).
2) Paul speaks of the Scriptures which Timothy has known "since childhood": that would mean that Paul is referring to the Hebrew Scriptures, not what you would know as the "New Testament", since the New Testament as you know it now doesn't exist yet.

So in effect your are arguing, based on this verse, that the Old Testament alone is our sole authority.

AaronL wrote:
Where do you find someone being made complete by anything apart from Scripture?

I find many people not being made complete even while claiming to follow Scripture. Being made complete doesn't come just by reading Scripture, Aaron. Being made complete is the result of divine grace.

You're not asking the right question.

AaronL wrote:
If you argue tradition, then it must be a tradition acquired by the Scripture.


Not only is this false, it's contradicted by Scripture:
"...if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Scripture says that the Church is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth." Not Scripture.

AaronL wrote:
If not, Jesus warned of tradition that does not line up with the Scripture. Again, the Scripture presents a complete road map--not a partial map.


Jesus never warned of "tradition that doesn't line up with Scripture".

Jesus warned of "traditions of men". Big difference.

You have yet to even prove that "scripture alone" is the sole rule of faith.

So far as I'm concerned, it's not in the Bible, so even going by your logic "Scripture alone" is in fact a "tradition of men".

AaronL wrote:
There are many passages in the Bible about prayer. I am sure that you are aware of that. But what do those verses emphasize?

They emphasize prayer in Christ's name as per the covenant He established. Nowhere does that contradict intercessory prayer, either of those of us on earth or those in heaven.

AaronL wrote:
How could we have so many verses on prayer and the various roles of the Triune God, but not have anything about Mary being our Mediatrix? This is an official title that the Roman Catholic Church has for her.
[/quote]

You cannot claim that the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence." IOW you cannot claim that because the Biblical writers didn't write on a thing which they had no intention of writing about is proof of anything.

There are plenty of instances of Scripture which suggest Mary's role in God's divine plan go beyond just being conduit for Jesus' Incarnation, e.g. the episode of the wedding at Cana.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:38 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
But scripture is NOT silent concerning this topic as you imply. You think I am arguing from silence. 1Timothy 2:5 There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; That word "one" is clearly saying that there is not two or three or more. You say that I am arguing from silence, but you insist on arguing as if the Bible were silent. The argument from this passage is not only that Jesus is necessary. It is also that Jesus is exclusive.


It says that Jesus is exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father. But the interaction between Jesus and His Church, which IS His Body, is another matter entirely. :D


"exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]" Jon, it does not say that. It says, "between God and men". Why is this so hard? Now your trying to make the Scripture say something that it does not say.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:25 pm 
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AaronL wrote:

"exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]" Jon, it does not say that. It says, "between God and men". Why is this so hard? Now your trying to make the Scripture say something that it does not say.


Really? Is Jesus not God?


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:

"exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]" Jon, it does not say that. It says, "between God and men". Why is this so hard? Now your trying to make the Scripture say something that it does not say.


Really? Is Jesus not God?


Your question has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not questioning the deity of Jesus. The second member of the God-head is the mediator. Again, please look at what the verse says. It says, "between God and men". Do you really study the verse? Or do you run over it in an attempt to defend your bias? I'm not trying to be offensive. But, your posts are not showing that you really are taking this verse seriously. I hope that you are doing well. Thank you for your posts. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:26 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:

"exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father ] [underline mine]" Jon, it does not say that. It says, "between God and men". Why is this so hard? Now your trying to make the Scripture say something that it does not say.


Really? Is Jesus not God?


Your question has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not questioning the deity of Jesus.


I never said that you were. I just wanted to be sure we both agreed who "God" is in this discussion and what the term entails.
Because your proof text says that "there is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ".


AaronL wrote:
The second member of the God-head is the mediator. Again, please look at what the verse says. It says, "between God and men". Do you really study the verse? Or do you run over it in an attempt to defend your bias?


Do you really study it in context with the rest of Scripture? Or do you simply rip it out of context as a tool to beat us Scripturally ignorant Catholics over the head with?

It's not even so much that I'm supposedly ignorant about the Bible as much as you appear to be ignorant as to what prayer is and what the Church teaches in regards to intercessory prayer and the communion of the saints.

I also noted how you avoided answering my question as to whether you ask other people to pray for you or whether you have prayed for others at their request?

Obviously your "objection" is that you think that when I pray to Mary that I'm supposedly "going around" Jesus.

Which begs the question, especially considering Paul's urging just a few verses before your proof-text where he in fact urges that intercessory prayers be made for all.

AaronL wrote:
I'm not trying to be offensive. But, your posts are not showing that you really are taking this verse seriously. I hope that you are doing well. Thank you for your posts. :)


Here's the thing, I really don't think that the God who is love is as peevish as Joffery Baratheon when it comes to His perogatives. It's absurd for me to think that for God, who possesses infinite glory and has created sons and daughters to share in that glory, is in any way envious or jealous or covetous in regards to His ongoing works.

Clearly the Scriptures teach that we, meaning His whole Body- the Church- are to imitate Christ in all things, and we hold that this includes His work of intercession and mediation.

Surely Christ is the one mediator. But to claim that "one" means "sole" or "exclusive" mediator between Himself and His Body, the Church, says that you're reading a false asceticism into the verse that Paul obviously never intended.

So it's not that I'm not giving it it's due importance, but rather you're going unnecessarily overboard with an interpretation that is well-meaning but mistaken.


Last edited by Gandalf the Grey on Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:36 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:

"exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father ] [underline mine]" Jon, it does not say that. It says, "between God and men". Why is this so hard? Now your trying to make the Scripture say something that it does not say.


Really? Is Jesus not God?


Your question has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not questioning the deity of Jesus.


I never said that you were. I just wanted to be sure we both agreed who "God" is in this discussion and what the term entails.
Because your proof text says that "there is one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ".



Do you believe that Jesus was a man? That is also a part of the doctrine of the Trinity. He was fully God and fully man.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:13 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Do you believe that Jesus was a man?


Yes I do. But such things are self-evident in that I'm a son of the Church as well as a son of God.

Among evangelicals such things are sometimes not so self-evident as you might expect.

[Quote=AaronL]
That is also a part of the doctrine of the Trinity. He was fully God and fully man.[/quote]

Not so much that it is in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity (although it is related) as much as it is about the hypostatic union.


I have no issue with what your describing, it just helps to know who you're speaking with.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:36 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
Here's the thing, I really don't think that the God who is love is as peevish as Joffery Baratheon when it comes to His perogatives. It's absurd for me to think that for God, who possesses infinite glory and has created sons and daughters to share in that glory, is in any way envious or jealous or covetous in regards to His ongoing works.


Quote:
Exodus 20:5 I the LORD thy God am a jealous God.
Exodus 34:14 The LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deuteronomy 6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Joshua 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous.


God is a jealous God. We may not agree on the application of that. But for you to say He is not "jealous . . . in regards to His ongoing works" is not true. He is glorified in His works.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:58 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Mary:
If we are to believe that you are correct concerning where we find "everything for our Faith" then we could easily say that God just did not cover the topic of Mary in the Scriptures--at least not to the extent that the Catholic Church does. We had to wait until further revelation came along (i.e. Church tradition).


What we know about Mary is based upon facts of Church history and reflections on what was revealed in Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition.

Sacred Tradition is not "further revelation." Its part and parcel of the whole of the Deposit if the Faith.

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."(2 Thes 2:15)

AaronL wrote:
But scripture is NOT silent concerning this topic as you imply. You think I am arguing from silence. 1Timothy 2:5 There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; That word "one" is clearly saying that there is not two or three or more. You say that I am arguing from silence, but you insist on arguing as if the Bible were silent. The argument from this passage is not only that Jesus is necessary. It is also that Jesus is exclusive.


It says that Jesus is exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father. But the interaction between Jesus and His Church, which IS His Body, is another matter entirely. :D


There are plenty of instances of Scripture which suggest Mary's role in God's divine plan go beyond just being conduit for Jesus' Incarnation, e.g. the episode of the wedding at Cana.



Stating, as you do that "interaction between Jesus and his Church is another mater entirely" is simply your assertion, nothing more.

The disciples saw the effectiveness of Jesus prayers. Jesus was asked specifically about how to pray. Jesus gave very specific instructions about who to direct prayers to and whose name to use. Jesus was also very specific about who would lead and guide after he left.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:13 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
Here's the thing, I really don't think that the God who is love is as peevish as Joffery Baratheon when it comes to His perogatives. It's absurd for me to think that for God, who possesses infinite glory and has created sons and daughters to share in that glory, is in any way envious or jealous or covetous in regards to His ongoing works.


Quote:
Exodus 20:5 I the LORD thy God am a jealous God.
Exodus 34:14 The LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deuteronomy 6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
Joshua 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous.

God is a jealous God. We may not agree on the application of that. But for you to say He is not "jealous . . . in regards to His ongoing works" is not true. He is glorified in His works.


God is a "jealous" God in that He doesn't suffer the other gods that the Israelites worshipped, violating the Old Covenant.

Clearly those under the New Covenant are in so such confusion as to who God is. Therefore the issue of God's "jealousy" is moot.

And when His children cooperate on His works though grace, be they any work of charity, including intercessory prayer where we act as mediators on behalf of others, He is glorified in them.

So no, God is not "jealous" when His children work in Christ's name. Their works ARE His works. Their good IS His GOOD.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:44 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Stating, as you do that "interaction between Jesus and his Church is another mater entirely" is simply your assertion, nothing more.


The fact of the two different covenants enacted in Jesus' passion, death, and resurrection have already been addressed before here.

Jesus is the One mediator because He mediates between the Corporate Covenant(Hebrew 7-10) and the Individual Covenant(Romans 5-8).

Intercessory prayers, which includes Mary's mediatory prayers and the disposal of graces which she receives from Christ, violate neither because they are within the Individual Covenant between Christ and His Body.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
The disciples saw the effectiveness of Jesus prayers. Jesus was asked specifically about how to pray. Jesus gave very specific instructions about who to direct prayers to and whose name to use.


Yes He did, He said "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son..."

When I pray to Mary, or to any of the glorified saints, asking them to pray for me, I pray in Christ's name.

Nowhere is Scripture does Jesus say "pray only to me" or "pray only to God" or "don't pray for others because they can come straight to me."

What Paul does say is that praying for others "...is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."(1 Tim 2:3-4).

If this is necessarily "good" & "acceptable in the sight of God" for those living on earth, it is also necessarily good & acceptable in the sight of God for those living in heaven as well.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Jesus was also very specific about who would lead and guide after he left.


Yes he was, and sadly you reject that as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:04 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Jesus was also very specific about who would lead and guide after he left.


Yes he was, and sadly you reject that as well.


Editorial noted.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:


Nowhere is Scripture does Jesus say "pray only to me" or "pray only to God" or "don't pray for others because they can come straight to me."



I have been healed of multiple ailments that doctor's could not ... and have seen many experience the same... simply obeying Jesus' words ... and adding nothing to it.

"When you pray..."
Matt 6: 6

"This, then, is how you should pray..."
Matt 6:9

Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 16:23


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:39 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Jesus was also very specific about who would lead and guide after he left.


Yes he was, and sadly you reject that as well.


Editorial noted.


It was an factual response to your editorial.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:49 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:


Nowhere is Scripture does Jesus say "pray only to me" or "pray only to God" or "don't pray for others because they can come straight to me."



I have been healed of multiple ailments that doctor's could not ... and have seen many experience the same... simply obeying Jesus' words ... and adding nothing to it.


Even by granting what you're sating here as true, it doesn't demonstrate that the Catholic position is false nor verify that your personal subjective views of what you call christianity true.

It simply means that God wanted to heal you. To claim that it is due specifically to your brand of christianity is a cum hoc fallacy.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
"When you pray..."
Matt 6: 6

"This, then, is how you should pray..."
Matt 6:9

Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 16:23


Non of which directly contradicts asking others, whether they be in heaven or on earth, to pray for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:58 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:


Nowhere is Scripture does Jesus say "pray only to me" or "pray only to God" or "don't pray for others because they can come straight to me."



I have been healed of multiple ailments that doctor's could not ... and have seen many experience the same... simply obeying Jesus' words ... and adding nothing to it.


Even by granting what you're sating here as true, it doesn't demonstrate that the Catholic position is false nor verify that your personal subjective views of what you call christianity true.

It simply means that God wanted to heal you. To claim that it is due specifically to your brand of christianity is a cum hoc fallacy.



You are changing the subject.


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