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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:47 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
Etcum wrote:


I'm not going to pick through that entire page just to try and glean from it something which you might be trying to say just to have you throw it back in my face by saying "that's not my argument".

I'm not going to do your work for you.

So I'm still waiting for an actual statement in full context which affirms that what you have stated above is actual Church teaching.


Quote:
Bl. Pius IX (+1878) places his hopes in the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, she who “with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world. … (She) who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers” (61).


"we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers." Is this teaching that Mary Preserves the Church from heretical doctrine? Is this what you believe Jon?

How has she "destroyed all heresies"? Funny thing, it seems that there is no disagreement between us that many heresies still exist. I'm not trying to hammer you with someone else's quote. But, perhaps you would know what this is all about?


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:00 am 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
AaronL wrote:
But scripture is NOT silent concerning this topic as you imply. You think I am arguing from silence. 1Timothy 2:5 There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; That word "one" is clearly saying that there is not two or three or more. You say that I am arguing from silence, but you insist on arguing as if the Bible were silent. The argument from this passage is not only that Jesus is necessary. It is also that Jesus is exclusive.


It says that Jesus is exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father. But the interaction between Jesus and His Church, which IS His Body, is another matter entirely. :D

AaronL wrote:
You can not get around this verse by saying that I can go through Mary to get to Jesus to get to God. That is more than one.

Then Paul is negating his own words when he writes these words written just before your proof-text:
[1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You're saying that people shouldn't intercede(or mediate by their prayers). So every time you ask someone to pray for you or that you pray for others you are in fact violating the gospel, according to your logic.


Jon if you want to carry the logic that you call mine a little farther--I could say that you are implying this--, then we are all mediators and mediatrix (I'm not even sure what the plural of mediatrix is). I think that the fact that there is "one mediator between God and men" clearly is not teaching just praying for someone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:12 am 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:

"exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]" Jon, it does not say that. It says, "between God and men". Why is this so hard? Now your trying to make the Scripture say something that it does not say.


Really? Is Jesus not God?


Your question has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not questioning the deity of Jesus. The second member of the God-head is the mediator. Again, please look at what the verse says. It says, "between God and men". Do you really study the verse? Or do you run over it in an attempt to defend your bias? I'm not trying to be offensive. But, your posts are not showing that you really are taking this verse seriously. I hope that you are doing well. Thank you for your posts. :)

Jon,

Do you really believe that when the Bible says, "between God and men" that it means "exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]"? You argue that the passage context helps your position. How does it argue for "mediation between Him and the Father"?


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:23 am 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
Etcum wrote:


I'm not going to pick through that entire page just to try and glean from it something which you might be trying to say just to have you throw it back in my face by saying "that's not my argument".

I'm not going to do your work for you.

So I'm still waiting for an actual statement in full context which affirms that what you have stated above is actual Church teaching.


Quote:
Bl. Pius IX (+1878) places his hopes in the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, she who “with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world. … (She) who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers” (61).


"we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers." Is this teaching that Mary Preserves the Church from heretical doctrine? Is this what you believe Jon?


You apparently skipped the part where it says, "with her only-begotten Son."

AaronL wrote:
How has she "destroyed all heresies"? Funny thing, it seems that there is no disagreement between us that many heresies still exist. I'm not trying to hammer you with someone else's quote. But, perhaps you would know what this is all about?


Heresies exist, but not within the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:25 am 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:

Explain more clearly the following as they relate to our hope in Mary:
1. "Her being the personification of the Church"


She is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son, and the wife of the Holy Spirit.

She is what a human person ought to be in relation to God(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) par excellence.

She preceded all others in faith and is in all things the closest disciple to her Son.


"the wife of the Holy Spirit" Where does the Catholic church teach this? I thought that she was the wife of Joseph. You do understand that conception does not necessarily mean marriage don't you. On the earthly level--the physical relationship does not mean marriage. Marriage is a life time covenant between a human man and a human woman.

The only time that I see marriage being used in Scripture to refer to God and humans would be Christ and his Church.
Quote:
Ephesians 5:23--33 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband./quote]

Anyway, I was wondering where you got that from.


If you want to address this, start a different thread. I really rather this not turn into a doctrinal dance where there are half-a-dozen different questions about Mary going all at once.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:40 am 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon,

Do you really believe that when the Bible says, "between God and men" that it means "exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]"?


No. It means between God and men in that as Christ mediates the Corporate Covenant on our behalf with the Father as our eternal High Priest, so do we mediate the Individual Covenant between Christ and each other and the world by our prayers and our works which are done in His name.

If the Church is the Body of Christ, and that the members of the Church are in Christ, then it follows that the Church is Christ(following the mystery of union Paul puts forth in Ephesians).

This also follows from what Peter says when he refers to the Church as "a royal priesthood, a holy nation".

Priests necessarily mediate on behalf of someone or something.

These are not just courtesies but spiritual realities.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Etcum wrote:


Quote:
Bl. Pius IX (+1878) places his hopes in the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, she who “with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world. … (She) who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers” (61).


"we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers." Is this teaching that Mary Preserves the Church from heretical doctrine? Is this what you believe Jon?


You apparently skipped the part where it says, "with her only-begotten Son."


No. I did not skip that part.
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
How has she "destroyed all heresies"? Funny thing, it seems that there is no disagreement between us that many heresies still exist. I'm not trying to hammer you with someone else's quote. But, perhaps you would know what this is all about?


Heresies exist, but not within the Church.


Acts 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Galations 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

2Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [underline mine]

Jude verses 3,4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. [underline mine]

Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:01 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


Do you really not understand what he means when he says that heresy does not exist within the Church? Apparently, you don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Jon,

Do you really believe that when the Bible says, "between God and men" that it means "exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]"?


No. It means between God and men in that as Christ mediates the Corporate Covenant on our behalf with the Father as our eternal High Priest, so do we mediate the Individual Covenant between Christ and each other and the world by our prayers and our works which are done in His name.


I'm sorry Jon. I am confused. Are you telling me what "between God and men" means? You are doing a "It means between God and men in that as . . . so" But what part of the 1Timothy 2 are you getting that from? What is the text saying? Where does it say, "we mediate"?

Jon Snow wrote:
If the Church is the Body of Christ, and that the members of the Church are in Christ, then it follows that the Church is Christ(following the mystery of union Paul puts forth in Ephesians).

This also follows from what Peter says when he refers to the Church as "a royal priesthood, a holy nation".

Priests necessarily mediate on behalf of someone or something.

These are not just courtesies but spiritual realities.


It seemed to me that you were reinterpreting 1Timothy 2. It would be helpful if you quoted the parts of the passage that you are basing your arguments on.

Just for clarification--you had mentioned that you thought that I was thinking that you Catholics were ignorant of the Bible. I am not thinking that and I certainly have not said that. I am not assuming anything--at least I am trying not to.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Doom wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


Do you really not understand what he means when he says that heresy does not exist within the Church? Apparently, you don't.

Doom,

You got it! I don't understand. That is the whole reason for this discussion--right? Is this not an apologetics forum?


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:36 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Etcum wrote:


Quote:
Bl. Pius IX (+1878) places his hopes in the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, she who “with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world. … (She) who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers” (61).


"we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers." Is this teaching that Mary Preserves the Church from heretical doctrine? Is this what you believe Jon?


You apparently skipped the part where it says, "with her only-begotten Son."


No. I did not skip that part.


Then where was it in your question?

AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
How has she "destroyed all heresies"? Funny thing, it seems that there is no disagreement between us that many heresies still exist. I'm not trying to hammer you with someone else's quote. But, perhaps you would know what this is all about?


Heresies exist, but not within the Church.


Acts 20:28-30 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Galations 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

2Peter 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [underline mine]

Jude verses 3,4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. [underline mine]

Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


Read your citations more carefully.

Acts 20:28-30: "grievous wolves", not God's sheep

Gal 2:4 "false brethren"

2 Peter 2:1-2 "false prophets" & "false teachers"

Jude 3,4, "ungodly men"

Heresies come from individuals picking out for themselves what to believe, not from the Church which is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth." And those who are heretics naturally put themselves outside of the Church.

Heresies may and do spring up from individuals within the Church, but they are never adopted by the Church, but rather defeated by her.

Thus the statement made by the Pope is valid and true.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:54 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Jon,

Do you really believe that when the Bible says, "between God and men" that it means "exclusive in the interaction of mediation between Him and the Father [underline mine]"?


No. It means between God and men in that as Christ mediates the Corporate Covenant on our behalf with the Father as our eternal High Priest, so do we mediate the Individual Covenant between Christ and each other and the world by our prayers and our works which are done in His name.


I'm sorry Jon. I am confused. Are you telling me what "between God and men" means? You are doing a "It means between God and men in that as . . . so" But what part of the 1Timothy 2 are you getting that from? What is the text saying? Where does it say, "we mediate"?


What do you think that it means to intercede for someone(verse 1)?

Intercede (v.) 1. To intervene between parties with the view of reconciling differences; 2) to mediate

AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
If the Church is the Body of Christ, and that the members of the Church are in Christ, then it follows that the Church is Christ(following the mystery of union Paul puts forth in Ephesians).

This also follows from what Peter says when he refers to the Church as "a royal priesthood, a holy nation".

Priests necessarily mediate on behalf of someone or something.

These are not just courtesies but spiritual realities.


It seemed to me that you were reinterpreting 1Timothy 2. It would be helpful if you quoted the parts of the passage that you are basing your arguments on.


"Reinterpreting"? Not at all. I'm just not interpreting it according to a 500 year old protestant tradition but according to the 2000 year old tradition of the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:26 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Doom wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


Do you really not understand what he means when he says that heresy does not exist within the Church? Apparently, you don't.

Doom,

You got it! I don't understand. That is the whole reason for this discussion--right? Is this not an apologetics forum?


Doom,
Sorry. That was not a very nice response. I should not respond in sarcasm.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:38 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Doom wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


Do you really not understand what he means when he says that heresy does not exist within the Church? Apparently, you don't.

Doom,

You got it! I don't understand. That is the whole reason for this discussion--right? Is this not an apologetics forum?



I just posted that out of frustration that you weren't addressing his point, but just with a distraction that missed the point of what he was saying. I'm just a spectator in this thread, I was just getting frustrated. Continue without me.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:08 pm 
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Doom wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Doom wrote:
AaronL wrote:
Are you sure that you can say that "Heresies exist, but not within the Church"? The passages seem to indicate that this will happen in the future--from the author's perspective. Can you be so dogmatic when the passages talk about them being "unawares". In other words there are people who did not realize that it happened.


Do you really not understand what he means when he says that heresy does not exist within the Church? Apparently, you don't.

Doom,

You got it! I don't understand. That is the whole reason for this discussion--right? Is this not an apologetics forum?



I just posted that out of frustration that you weren't addressing his point, but just with a distraction that missed the point of what he was saying. I'm just a spectator in this thread, I was just getting frustrated. Continue without me.

I probably came across rather harsh. You are welcome to make your comments. After all, I am the visitor. This is a Catholic forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:50 pm 
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AaronL wrote:
Jon Snow wrote:
Phil Kerr wrote:
But you quote: St. Ephraem beseeches Mary, "O Lady, cease not to watch over us; preserve and guard us under the wings of your compassion and mercy, for, after God, we have no hope but in you!"

Do you perceive a difference in man made doctrine vs The Word of God? Hopefully you will.


You clearly do not get what the term "context" means.

Since you regard Jesus as the angel Michael and not God the Son, its easy to see how you miss the fact that "God" includes the Trinity, includes Jesus.

Mary is our hope because as God through Christ has glorified her by her faith, so do we believe that God through Christ will glorify us with her.

Therefore it is not a contradiction or repudiation of Jesus' mediation of the Covenant, nor of Scripture.


"Mary is our hope"? Hope for what? Can you find any scripture that shows that we should have any hope in Mary? And if so, what are we suppose to hope in her for?

"God through Christ will glorify us with her." Now what do you mean by "with her"?
Perhaps:
1. That we also are glorified as Mary is glorified?
or
2. That we are glorified because of Mary?

I ask because you did say "through Christ". But if God is glorifying us, then what does Mary have to do with our being glorified?


Hello Citizen,

It was through Mary's Yes, that Jesus came into the world, therefore by Mary's Yes, that we Christians will be glorified by Jesus Christ! Without Mary's Yes, there will be no Savior to save us. Yes, yes, yes, it is hard for you to understand this. This is One of the Many reason why "All Generations Shall Call Her Blessed"

Citizen, many protestants have said if Mary said No, Christ would of came another way to us, and again God can do all things, however, the truth of the matter is Jesus Christ did not, He chose to be born through Mary and no other way, Scripture proves it. Amen

Citizen, instead of many protestants trying to be God and try to find other "AVENUES" for our savior to come into the world, thank the one and only AVENUE MARY, for it is by Mary's Yes that we Christians will be glorified. Amen

Citizen, Re: Praying to Mary or any saint in heaven such Like Abraham. Citizen, I am sure you read the parable of the "Rich man and Lazarus". My point is if the rich man in hell cried out / PRAYED to Abraham, while the poor man Lazarus was reclining on his bosom /chest somewhere in paradise, how much more can WE Christian Cry out / Pray to Mary or again any saint in heaven such like Abraham at this very moment??? This will be a new topic / thread that i will put up here re: praying to saints in heaven.

Jesus did say "BEHOLD THY MOTHER"

OneFaith

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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:25 pm 
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OneFaith,

Please post an intro in the Welcome Forum.

Please don't post in colored font. Red and Green are reserved for staff, other colors are allowed, but on a very limited basis.

Also, please note that Citizen is a rank title, not a username. Your rank title is Newbie. Your Username is OneFaith. Please refer to other posters using their username, not their rank title.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

Because they can.

God has enabled them to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do Catholics pray to Mary?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Mary does represent some element of God. She represents the Holy Spirit ie. Holy Mary. The Holy Spirit is one part of the Trinity. She sometimes represents Christ. Anybody can be holy including saints and Mary is not as important as Christ.


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