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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:20 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRXgHSdNkTM :fyi:

Now we can get the discussion back onto much more respectable ground....namely, Master of Puppets, or ...And Justice For All?





...And Justice for All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :fyi:


The best Metallica album is Ride the Lightning, with The Black Album being a close second


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:38 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Yes and yes!

Matthew? Is that you?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:14 pm 
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Doom wrote:
gherkin wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRXgHSdNkTM :fyi:

Now we can get the discussion back onto much more respectable ground....namely, Master of Puppets, or ...And Justice For All?





...And Justice for All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :fyi:


The best Metallica album is Ride the Lightning, with The Black Album being a close second

:swoon


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:15 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Yes and yes!

Matthew? Is that you?

er, I don't think so..... :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:24 pm 
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Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
Doom wrote:
What on Earth is wrong with Thriller? I mean, I will grant that Off the Wall was a better album....but Thriller isn't bad, just overplayed.

It's not so much about what's wrong with Thriller. It's about the fact that the second premise can't really be proven. It might be a reasonable assumption, but it's not a demonstration proper.


The second premise? I wouldn't trust the sanity of anyone who said that Thriller is a better album than Off The Wall.

Again, it's a reasonable assertion and all the evidence backs up the claim, but it's still an inference. It isn't a necessity, so Classical Jacksonists don't tend to like the argument. Some people influenced by Classical Jacksonism but who at the heart of their method are more analytical, more Timberlakian, they come to a different conclusion entirely.

gherkin wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRXgHSdNkTM :fyi:

Now we can get the discussion back onto much more respectable ground....namely, Master of Puppets, or ...And Justice For All?





...And Justice for All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :fyi:

I'd answer that by ranking all of their major releases from best to worst. Hands down:

1. St Anger
2. Reload
3. Garage, Inc
4. Load
5. S&M
6. Kill Em All
7. Death Magnetic
8. Black Album
9. Ride the Lightening
10. And Justice for All
11. Master of Puppets
































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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:56 pm 
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Load is definitely better than Master of Puppets.

Outlaw Torn is without a doubt the best song Metallica has ever made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoQHRyh03_8


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:25 am 
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Doom wrote:
Load is definitely better than Master of Puppets.

Heretic. I'm reporting this post to Pope Francis himself.

Quote:
Outlaw Torn is without a doubt one of the best songs Metallica has ever made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoQHRyh03_8

Ftfy

And better version of outlaw: https://youtu.be/jSedXGIH6CM


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:19 am 
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Load has 12 songs, all of them good.

Master of Puppets has 8 songs, two of which are good, the title song and Disposable Heroes. The remaining 6 songs are filler. Only 25% of the songs on Master of Puppets are worth listening to, that's not a good batting average.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:08 pm 
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*shrug* I don't think that all of the songs on Load are good, and I don't know too many people who do, either. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter. And I'm one, along with most others I believe, who think that a lot more than two songs on MoP are good and the rest filler. Quite to the contrary, I don't think any of the songs on that track are filler. All are very well done and play a unique role on the album.

Maybe you're difficulty is just with the genre of MoP?


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:37 pm 
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theJack wrote:
*shrug* I don't think that all of the songs on Load are good, and I don't know too many people who do, either



Load has sold nearly 3 times as many copies as Master of Puppets, that alone tells you something, it tells you the verdict of the fans.

I don't listen to Metallica often, but when I do I am about 457,654 times more likely to still Load into the CD player than Master of Puppets, and when I do put Load in, I generally listen to it from beginning to end, Master of Puppets I listen to two songs, I almost never listen to it all the way through. I've never really liked Master of Puppets. That's the only Metallica album I've never been able to get into.

it is the general consensus of Metallica fans that Ride the Lightning is the best album, which is why if you go buy the CD, it even has a sticker on it that says 'Voted All Time Greatest Thrash Metal album', not just greatest Metallica album, but greatest thrash metal album by any band.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:57 pm 
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Where are you getting your numbers? According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, MoP sold 4.5 million albums, whereas Load sold 5 million albums. But beyond that, Load was the follow up to their hugely successful Black Album (16 million albums!), and that album was hugely successful because they made it a point to shorten their songs and make them more radio friendly. In fact, if you go by numbers, that makes Load far, far, far worse than MoP. Look at the trend line. Again, per Wikipedia, albums sold for each album:

KeA: No numbers
RtL: 4.3mil
MoP: 4.5mil
AJFA: 5.3mil
BA: 16mil
Load: 4.5mil
RL: 4mil
StA: 2mil
DM:1.8mil

So Load is about average for their sales. Exclude BA because it was such a huge success and St Anger because it was so bad. Death Magnetic gets mixed reviews, but here I think the comparison is illustrative. You've got slowly but steadily increasing growth with their first four albums, with a rather large jump between MoP and AJFA. That implies that fans loved MoP enough that they went out to buy the new album. And between the success of both MoP and AJFA (success in terms of good song writing) and the radio friendly style of the Blank Album, you have a HUGE jump to 16mil. At this point, then, you would expect that if Load was BETTER than MoP, that you ought to keep those 16mil fans and, if history is any guide, to grow them. But instead what do you get? A MASSIVE drop off in sales for the first time in their career. That should tell you that fans didn't like the album. And then when Reload comes out, you lose even more fans. Now they've hurt their credibility, so Saint Anger comes out and it is universally panned by both audiences and critics. So when Death Magnetic comes out, you expect them to lose more fans right? They lose just a few, but basically maintain the 2mil they had before. If Death Magnetic had been as bad as St Anger, you would have expected another huge drop off.

The point is that Load is, by these numbers, clearly a bad album. That is, if you want to ask fans.

The good news for your argument is that just because a lot of people buy an album doesn't make it good. What, you think Back Street Boys' self-titled debut was better than every Metallica album except the Black Album?!? I mean, they sold 10 million copies!

As far as fan polls, maybe you don't think much of Rolling Stone, but I did a quick Google search just to check your claim and found this: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/pictu ... s-20130904. So if RtL is so much better than MoP, why is MoP, and not RtL, listed THE BEST metal album of the 80s? In fact, on that poll anyway, AFJA (5th place) beats out RtL (6th place).

tl;dr - u r ntitled to ur rong opinun

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:05 pm 
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But I would still rank Ride the Lightning as the best because that is the album that changed everything and proved that Metallica was different from every other thrash metal band out there.

Kill 'Em All had great musicianship but it's lyrics are immature and cliched, typical 'death and destruction' heavy metal posturing, Kill Em All is an album that could have been made by any band of the 1980's.

But Ride the Lightning was a radical departure from Kill 'Em All, it's the album when Metallica grew up, tackling mature subject matter in an intelligent way.

The title track is an extended argument against the death penalty, Fade to Black is the first thrash metal power ballad, Creeping Death is about Cecil B Demille's The Ten Commandments (talk about an unusual subject matter for a heavy metal band!), The Call Cthulu is an instrumental inspired by the writings of HP Lovecraft, and For Whom The Bell Tolls really is about the novel by Ernest Hemmingway (or more specifically, about one particular chapter in the novel). At a time when every other heavy metal band was writing songs about such tired subjects as drinking, sex, partying, and braggadocious boasting about how tough they are, Metallica was raising the bar by talking about issues that matter.


. Fade to Black and One from .....And Justice For All were the songs that every other band in the 1980's were trying to imitate, the song has a relatively simple structure, but no other band was able to do it exactly correct.

There were, in the late 80's and early 90's, approximately 876,000 different heavy metal songs that tried to imitate Fade to Black, this one song is the one that is responsible for the flurry of heavy metal songs in the late 80's that start out slow but gradually get faster and heavier.

Ride the Lightning is also where the musicianship improved exponentially, the songs became more elaborate and complex with a complex structure that resembled a classical symphony, albeit much shorter than most symphonies. Ride the Lightning was probably the world's first progressive metal album.

And there's a reason for that: Cliff Burton was a classically trained musician who introduced the band to the principles of music theory, he helped Hetfield learn how to augment core notes with complimentary counter melodies and helped the band understand how guitar harmonies work. The result was a much more musically complex and interesting album.


Everything from the structure of the songs to the more sophisticated subject matter of the lyrics would be imitated by almost every other thrash metal band of the 80's.

You can notice the influence of Ride the Lightning by comparing the albums of other bands before and after its release.

Anthrax's first album A Fistful of Metal was a boring mishmash of cliched songs about much of a badass they are. Then came Spreading The Disease and especially Among the Living, where both the music and the lyrics became much more mature. There is no doubt that this was largely due to the influence of Ride the Lightning.

Megadeth's first album was the atrocious Killing is My Business...and Business is Good, which doesn't have a single non-cliched song. After this, came Peace Sells, So Far, So Good, So What, and Rust in Peace, where the focus of the lyrics came to veered away from cliched heavy metal songs and steered towards politics and social issues.

Ride the Lightning was the game changer, after that album, heavy metal bands started to raise their IQ to compete.


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:26 pm 
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I don't question RtL's influence. But to your point, that's the album where they started playing what you're suggesting is intelligent metal. Now you mention the structure of F2B as relatively simple, and it is. But that's also the case for much of the album. MoP takes what RtL does and takes it to a whole new level. The songs are very intricate and the lyrical content is fantastic. And even better than RtL, the lyrical content of MoP is thematically related. MoP almost presents a worldview (to take two modern albums that I think do that well, too, Disturbed's Believe and Green Day's American Idiot).

AFJA is hands down the most complicated of the first four albums, but it gets so intricate (in my own opinion) that they started sacrificing some song quality just for the sake of that intricacy. So I say the song writing on MoP was better. But I still rank AFJA as superior to RtL because, granted some loss, the album is still, as a whole, far more mature (understandably so) than what RtL offered.

Again, I'm not questioning that RtL was a great album. It is. And in terms of sheer influence, it's probably more influential as a whole than the other two--and more than Load by miles. But influence on a genre does not make an album great in and of itself. RtL was a fantastic and highly first attempt at evolving the genre, and the next two, MoP and AJFA, took that to greater heights (the former more than the latter).

In my opinion, of course.

fakeedit: and by comparison to all that, Load not only did not influence the genre but was a bad attempt to follow where music had gone in the 90s. Rather than lead the way, Metallica of all groups became poor imitators. Some good songs on the album--great even--of course, but that's a testament to their writing ability. The album itself isn't terribly good, and especially not considered against the rest of their discography (or at least against the first half).


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 Post subject: Re: Jack -- The Kalam Argument
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:59 am 
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It's been awhile since I had the records, but, uh, isn't Sanitarium on Master of Puppets?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?12


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