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 Post subject: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:56 pm 
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I apologize in advance if this isn't the correct forum to ask my question. It seemed like a toss-up between Apologetics and Catholicism 101.

Now we all know contraception is gravely sinful, and so is using NFP with a contraceptive mentality. However, I've encountered some ultraconservative Catholics who claim that using NFP is intrinsically evil no matter what and that married couples with sufficient reason to avoid pregnancy must TOTALLY abstain from sex -- even during infertile periods. They further claim the Church is wrong to allow NFP. My question is, while those who condemn NFP as intrinsically evil are obviously mistaken, is it heresy or something like that to believe such a thing? Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:28 pm 
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It is not heresy, but simply an erroneous belief.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It is not heresy, but simply an erroneous belief.


It may constitute a sin against faith by believing that what the Church has proposed as legitimate could be instrinsically evil. N'est ce pas?


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:45 am 
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Such an attitude of dissent is quite incompatible with being a real Catholic

Blessed John Paul II:
“It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987]

The ringing Donum Veritatis (Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian, CDF), 1990, completely rules out all dissent:
“32. The Magisterium has drawn attention several times to the serious harm done to the community of the Church by attitudes of general opposition to Church teaching which even come to expression in organized groups. In his apostolic exhortation Paterna cum benevolentia [1974], Paul VI offered a diagnosis of this problem which is still apropos. In particular, he addresses here that public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church also called "dissent", which must be distinguished from the situation of personal difficulties treated above. The phenomenon of dissent can have diverse forms. Its remote and proximate causes are multiple.”
#36. “The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent.”


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:37 pm 
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To say 'The Church is wrong' sounds a bit Pius X community, doesn't it? Are those ultra-orthodox Catholics maybe part of that movement?


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:09 pm 
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The problem with that mentality is that ignores the basic human dignity of using our intellect and our role as co-creators with God.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Real Catholics are faithful to the Magisterium.

Christ’s Catholic Church teaches us through Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae #16, 1968:
“Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.”

Real Catholics assent to the teaching of the Holy Father and do not persistently challenge the teaching of the Church when it suits them so to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Real Catholics also do their best to speak charitably of others and to impute the best possible motives even to the erring.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:20 pm 
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As a real Catholic and the Supreme Vicar of Christ, Bl John Paul II charitably admonishes thus:
“It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].
[My emphasis].

So let the shepherds really teach the flock.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Are you a shepherd?


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Clear cut:
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on June 19, 2006 (EWTN):

“If you want an objective reason as to why contraception is a serious evil and NFP is not only morally justifiable but also praiseworthy, that objective reason is this: with contraception, there is the deliberate rupture of the intimate link between the unitive and procreative meanings of the marital act. With NFP, there is no such rupture. Even in the case in which a couple, using NFP, resorts to the infertile period for marital relations so as to avoid pregnancy (assuming for the sake of argument, for serious reasons) there is no such objective rupture of that link precisely because there is nothing there to contracept. You need to understand that morality is not simply about results. It is also about our actions in and of themselves. The argument to which you refer (the results are the same with NFP and contraception) is purely utilitarian and does not take into consideration the entire human act. Furthermore, as I have pointed out several times, the condoning of contraception quite logically is also the condoning of genital activity with anyone or anything, as well as of in vitro fertilization and cloning. The Church's teaching on contraception does not at all depend on faith. It is a clear and rational defense of the very essence of civilization.”
[The late Fr Torraco was the Executive Director of the Society for the Study of the Magisterial Teaching of the Church (SSMTC)].


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:37 pm 
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My point is simply this: You arrived at this board and immediately starting delivering a lecture to an audience most of whom were already in complete agreement with you that NFP is not intrinsically sinful and that Catholics owe complete intellectual obedience to the Magisterium. There are better ways to make your presence known and better ways to make your point. Perhaps you could stop by the Welcome and Introductions forum, tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're here, and take it from there. I think you'll get much better results that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:42 pm 
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Mercer wrote:
My question is, while those who condemn NFP as intrinsically evil are obviously mistaken, is it heresy or something like that to believe such a thing?

As Fr. Obi-Wan points out, it is an error but not heresy. NFP is not an article of the faith, so believing (wrongly) that it is intrinsically evil is not heresy.

On the other hand, contra Thomist's quote of Fr. Torraco, I do not see what is necessarily "praiseworthy" about the practice of NFP. That would imply that those who do not practice NFP are acting in a less than praiseworthy manner.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:55 am 
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Bagheera Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:42 pm
On the other hand, contra Thomist's quote of Fr. Torraco, I do not see what is necessarily "praiseworthy" about the practice of NFP. That would imply that those who do not practice NFP are acting in a less than praiseworthy manner.

There is no such implication. Contraception is intrinsically evil, but there is no compulsion to use NBR – it is approved for serious reasons. Many “Catholics” wrongly choose contraception.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:17 am 
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Thomist wrote:
There is no such implication.

Yes there is. If it is praiseworthy to use NFP, then by implication it is less than praiseworthy to not use it.

NFP is a negative, not a positive -- some sort of moral evil, whether financial, physical, etc., is required to use it to postpone pregnancy.

Quote:
Many “Catholics” wrongly choose contraception.

Yes, I am quite aware of that. :fyi: I think you'll find that most members on this board are painfully aware of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
Thomist wrote:
There is no such implication.

Yes there is. If it is praiseworthy to use NFP, then by implication it is less than praiseworthy to not use it.

NFP is a negative, not a positive -- some sort of moral evil, whether financial, physical, etc., is required to use it to postpone pregnancy.

Did you mean "moral evil"? Seems to me you merely meant "some sort of evil" Physical evils need not be moral, after all.


It is fascinating to read some articles in The Thomist about periodic continence. It's exact moral nature, and specific difference from contraception is not clear cut. Even JPII calls for more work to be done. The facile answers proffered by internet apologists are not as deciding as is pretended. Though, of course, certain conclusions are, as it were, granted by authority.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:32 pm 
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The praiseworthiness of using NBR comes from the Vicars of Christ:
Pius XI, Casti Connubii (II, 59), 1930, teaches “Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.”

God has not commanded anywhere that the marital act should not be performed when a woman is infertile, through natural rhythms, age etc. As each and every action is open to procreation in non-contraceptive intercourse, using NBR for serious reasons merely allows God’s will to operate as He has provided our human nature with infertile periods and has not commanded otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
Did you mean "moral evil"? Seems to me you merely meant "some sort of evil" Physical evils need not be moral, after all.

Yes, you are right.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Thomist wrote:
The praiseworthiness of using NBR comes from the Vicars of Christ:

Not being forbidden is not the same thing as praiseworthy. Praiseworthy is a higher standard than morally justifiable as your quote from Fr. Torraco ("NFP is not only morally justifiable but also praiseworthy") shows. For example, becoming intoxicated at times of emotional distress can be morally justified ... but it does not follow that it is praiseworthy.

I haven't said (nor do I believe) that NFP is forbidden. I simply don't see what is praiseworthy about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Believing NFP is intrinsically sinful
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Bagheera
I haven't said (nor do I believe) that NFP is forbidden. I simply don't see what is praiseworthy about it.

Bl John Paul II further explains the value of NBR in the Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio (Of The Christian Family In The Modern World), 1981, from #32:
“When, instead, by means of recourse to periods of infertility, the couple respect the inseparable connection between the unitive and procreative meanings of human sexuality, they are acting as "ministers" of God's plan and they "benefit from" their sexuality according to the original dynamism of "total" selfgiving, without manipulation or alteration.

“The choice of the natural rhythms involves accepting the cycle of the person, that is the woman, and thereby accepting dialogue, reciprocal respect, shared responsibility and self-control. To accept the cycle and to enter into dialogue means to recognize both the spiritual and corporal character of conjugal communion and to live personal love with its requirement of fidelity. In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitute the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also. In this way sexuality is respected and promoted in its truly and fully human dimension, and is never "used" as an "object" that, by breaking the personal unity of soul and body, strikes at God's creation itself at the level of the deepest interaction of nature and person.”


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