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 Post subject: Re: Orthodox questioning Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:26 pm 
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Ancient Mariner
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Where'd he go? Did he just come here to tell us we are wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Orthodox questioning Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Citizen
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beng wrote:
Which do you subscribe Vadim, that "the names on top of the attendant list were the presidents of the council" or "the names on top of the attendant list were not the presidents of the council?"


I would subscribe second phrase. Roman Catholic authors, trying to get as many proofs as possible, inevitably contradict each other: in the quotations below first two authors assert that papal legates presided on the Seventh Council, while the third one (recommended on this forum) — that St. Tarasius presided:

The 21 Ecumenical Councils, The Catholic encyclopedia

    The Second Council of Nicaea was convoked by Emperor Constantine VI and his mother Irene, under Pope Adrian I, and was presided over by the legates of Pope Adrian; it regulated the veneration of holy images. Between 300 and 367 bishops assisted.

Hefele

    2. At all the sessions of the seventh Œcumenical Synod, the papal legates, the Archpresbyter Peter and the Abbot Peter, came first; after them Tarasius Archbishop of Constantinople, <...> The decrees were signed in the same order, <...> Besides, we must not omit to state that, notwithstanding the presidency of the papal legates, Tarasius Archbishop of Constantinople had the real management of the business at this Synod. 7

Philip Hughes, History of the Church

    ... on September 24, 787, the council met at Nicea ... More than 300 bishops attended the council, the pope was represented by two legates and the Patriarch of Constantinople presided.


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 Post subject: Re: Orthodox questioning Papacy
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:54 am 
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Just a thought, or maybe I am confused about what's valid and what isn't valid.
If the Holy Father embraces the EO then that must mean that the EO Mass is as valid as the Latin Church?
Of course the SSPX have different views on the validity of Mass . :|


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 Post subject: Re: Orthodox questioning Papacy
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:06 am 
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Adept
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Valid isn't the same as licit.


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 Post subject: Re: Orthodox questioning Papacy
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:10 am 
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Potiphera wrote:
Just a thought, or maybe I am confused about what's valid and what isn't valid.
If the Holy Father embraces the EO then that must mean that the EO Mass is as valid as the Latin Church?
Of course the SSPX have different views on the validity of Mass . :|




Ok, thanks for that. Are the Masses I mentioned all valid and licit ?


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 Post subject: Re: Orthodox questioning Papacy
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from a Catholic standpoint, all masses are valid if they are,

    1. said by a proper minister (priest or bishop with the proper faculties),
    2. who uses proper matter (bread and wine*), and
    3. utilizes the proper form (words of institution, epiclesis, etc.**),
    4. with the proper intention (to do what the Church does, facere quod facit Ecclesia).

    * And perhaps water. This is a bit different in different rites. AFAIK, all Western rites use unleavened bread, and Eastern rites use leavened bread.
    ** This depends on the rite.

But a licit mass is only possible in churches who are in communion with the pope. (Licit means, basically, legal.) This excludes EO masses.


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