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 Post subject: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:17 pm 
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I read and hear arguments about defending The Catholic Faith against Protestants and sometimes Jews but I've never heard a discussion between a Catholic and an Orthodox Christian about which church is the church founded by Jesus Christ. I've been reading about the Orthodox Church on line and I'm very surprised at some of the things I've found, like they do not believe in Purgatory and they even allow, under certain conditions for contraception. So I was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction for arguments for Catholicism vs Orthodox Churches.

Thank you and God Bless,
Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:24 pm 
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I just wanted to point out I have a lot of love and respect for the Orthodox Churches so I'm in no way trying to put any of them down. I've always wanted to visit one but haven't gotten around to it yet, but I will one day soon.
But my problem is that how can they be the one true church when there are so many different Orthodox Churches out there? Do they all teach the same thing? I've always thought that The Orthodox Churches were in schism but the more I research it there seems to be some heresies as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:30 pm 
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There are two Eastern Catholic (Orthodox in communion with Rome) parishes in New Orleans. I would suggest (highly) that you give one of them a visit. One is Melkite and one is Ruthenian.

Enjoy!


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:25 am 
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It is a complex issue.

This article might give you some talking points: A Catholic View of Orthodoxy by Fr. Aidan Nichols OP.

This article was written by a Catholic who was Orthodox for a few years: Twelve Differences Between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. (Note that, per the blog owner, this post is not "an apologetical treatise to compare and contrast the Catholic and Orthodox perspective on these issues.")

And then there is this response on the same blog: Fr. Al Kimel on the 12 Differences...


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:37 pm 
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A friendly Eastern Forum http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

I've been a member almost 10 years...a good mix of Orthodox and Eastern Catholics with a sprinkling of Latins...


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Do NOT go to Byzcath Forum OR Catholic.com Eastern Catholic sub-forum (but the former is worst than the later). Both, especially the former, is full with "The Spirit of Vatican II™" eastern Catholics.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:16 pm 
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beng wrote:
Do NOT go to Byzcath Forum OR Catholic.com Eastern Catholic sub-forum (but the former is worst than the later). Both, especially the former, is full with "The Spirit of Vatican II™" eastern Catholics.


It is all a fantasy anyways. We all know that nothing truly exists beyond the confines of Steve Ray's Message Boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:40 pm 
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beng wrote:
Do NOT go to Byzcath Forum OR Catholic.com Eastern Catholic sub-forum (but the former is worst than the later). Both, especially the former, is full with "The Spirit of Vatican II™" eastern Catholics.



where are your supporting examples regarding Byzcath.org ?


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Jakub wrote:
beng wrote:
Do NOT go to Byzcath Forum OR Catholic.com Eastern Catholic sub-forum (but the former is worst than the later). Both, especially the former, is full with "The Spirit of Vatican II™" eastern Catholics.



where are your supporting examples regarding Byzcath.org ?


I find Beng's statement offensive. I think that it approaches libel to say such a thing without clear and proper examples to defend such a statement.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
... I'm very surprised at some of the things I've found, like they do not believe in Purgatory...


Well, they may not call it "purgatory," but it sounds very similar:

At the instant when a man dies, the body goes to the earth and is dissolved into the elements of which it is composed, and the soul undergoes a preliminary divine judgment... But if he was a believer, and did not corrupt the faith, and having sinned, did indeed repent, but did not reach the performance of good deeds to prove his repentance by actions, then he is led where God assigns him, that he may be punished temporarily, as long as Divine Righteousness considers proper.

CATECHISM OF THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH WRITTEN BY Rev. Constas H. Demetry, D. D.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Cajun_Catholic_Guy wrote:
... and they even allow, under certain conditions for contraception...


On this topic it IS difficult to find agreement among the Orthodox. In 2002, Monachos.net had 6 pages of discussion on the topic 'Birth control' among various Orthodox groups


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Greg wrote:
It is a complex issue.

This article might give you some talking points: A Catholic View of Orthodoxy by Fr. Aidan Nichols OP.

This article was written by a Catholic who was Orthodox for a few years: Twelve Differences Between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. (Note that, per the blog owner, this post is not "an apologetical treatise to compare and contrast the Catholic and Orthodox perspective on these issues.")

And then there is this response on the same blog: Fr. Al Kimel on the 12 Differences...

I think Fr. Kimel gives away too much. St. Augustine is not to be thrown aside lightly.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Jakub wrote:
beng wrote:
Do NOT go to Byzcath Forum OR Catholic.com Eastern Catholic sub-forum (but the former is worst than the later). Both, especially the former, is full with "The Spirit of Vatican II™" eastern Catholics.



where are your supporting examples regarding Byzcath.org ?


It was a long time ago...


But here's a recorded testimony from someone.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:56 pm 
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More from the guy, William Huysman, about Byzcath forum (with link to the threads),

http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.com ... art-3.html


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think Fr. Kimel gives away too much. St. Augustine is not to be thrown aside lightly.


Perhaps. The Orthodox in general (I think) do not have a very positive opinion of St. Augustine.

From Orthodoxwiki:

"Despite these acclamations (of the 5th and 6th Ecumenical Councils), most of his works were not translated into Greek until circa 1360 by Demetrios Cydones and some Orthodox Christians identify errors in his theology—especially those in his Triadology which gave rise to the Filioque addition to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed—and regard him as being one of the major factors in the Great Schism between the Church in the East and in the West. Thus, there are those among the Orthodox who regard Augustine as a heretic, although there has never been any conciliar condemnation of either him or his writings."

Source: Orthodoxwiki

Now, St. John Chrysostom on the other hand!


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Greg wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think Fr. Kimel gives away too much. St. Augustine is not to be thrown aside lightly.


Perhaps. The Orthodox in general (I think) do not have a very positive opinion of St. Augustine.

From Orthodoxwiki:

"Despite these acclamations (of the 5th and 6th Ecumenical Councils), most of his works were not translated into Greek until circa 1360 by Demetrios Cydones and some Orthodox Christians identify errors in his theology—especially those in his Triadology which gave rise to the Filioque addition to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed—and regard him as being one of the major factors in the Great Schism between the Church in the East and in the West. Thus, there are those among the Orthodox who regard Augustine as a heretic, although there has never been any conciliar condemnation of either him or his writings."

Source: Orthodoxwiki


What non-sense. The infallibility of the Church (which they believed) would've protected the Church if St. Augustine was really heretic. It doesn't matter if he spoke Martian. If the Church defines that what he said in Martian is to be held by all faithful as an article of faith, then it is infallible even if no one understands Martian.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Greg wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think Fr. Kimel gives away too much. St. Augustine is not to be thrown aside lightly.


Perhaps. The Orthodox in general (I think) do not have a very positive opinion of St. Augustine.

I know, and it seemed to me that Fr. Kimmel was trying to give them as much breathing room as possible. I think he overshot.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:45 pm 
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The forum at Byzcath is Eastern, both Orthodox & Catholic, however, they do expect a certain courtesy from guests and visitors, just like here.

Beng your type of labelings and misconceptions are a prime example that there is a long way to go for many...


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:11 am 
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Jakub wrote:
The forum at Byzcath is Eastern, both Orthodox & Catholic, however, they do expect a certain courtesy from guests and visitors, just like here.

Beng your type of labelings and misconceptions are a prime example that there is a long way to go for many...


Does it mean that for "some" eastern Catholic, they're a long way to go before they become truly Catholic like their saintly forefathers? If it is, then I agree.

Look, some eastern Catholics are not Catholic. Just like how some western Catholic are not Catholic (e.g. Pelosi). Not all of them are saints. Many have defy Catholic teaching. Just like how many western Catholics have defy catholic teaching.


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 Post subject: Re: Defending Catholism when talking to Orthodox Christians
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:32 am 
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beng wrote:
Jakub wrote:
The forum at Byzcath is Eastern, both Orthodox & Catholic, however, they do expect a certain courtesy from guests and visitors, just like here.

Beng your type of labelings and misconceptions are a prime example that there is a long way to go for many...


Does it mean that for "some" eastern Catholic, they're a long way to go before they become truly Catholic like their saintly forefathers? If it is, then I agree.

Look, some eastern Catholics are not Catholic. Just like how some western Catholic are not Catholic (e.g. Pelosi). Not all of them are saints. Many have defy Catholic teaching. Just like how many western Catholics have defy catholic teaching.


I seriously doubt that you have the knowledge or ability to decide or pass judgement on who is Catholic or not, East or West...


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