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 Post subject: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:12 pm 
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The Exterminator
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Typist wrote:
To get back on the original topic of this thread...

Quick reminder, I really am looking for Liberal Catholics. Seriously. Tips and links are most appreciated. I've found some blogs, but no forums. No replies from any blog owners yet, but that's pretty normal, whatever the topic.

What I'd really, ideally, like to find is an online Catholic community whose ownership isn't focused on promoting a particular viewpoint, but has taken on the specific mission of bringing all the different Catholic community viewpoints together in dialog.

I'm a forum software developer and could assist with this if somebody needed a technical partner, but obviously I'm not qualified to lead or moderate such a forum, given that I haven't been to Mass since somewhere around the last ice age.

For me, an ex-Catholic coming back to check in after years away, it's sort of a test of modern Catholicism. My reasoning is...

If the Catholic community of today, or the Church itself, can't find a way to organize an online church whose specific purpose is to be equally welcoming to any kind of Catholic, and not just a particular partisan camp, I start thinking things like....

I wonder what the Buddhists are up to?

Please understand this is not in any way a rebuke of this forum. I'm having a good time on my visit, and thank you for that.

I'm just trying to be realistic. If I start a thread here called "Why Gay Marriage Is Great" it's just going to launch a pointless me vs. you firestorm that none of us want. This is your house, and you have a right to have it the way you like it.

What say you? Should Catholicism have an online forum that's for all camps, and not aligned with any one camp? Can Catholics pull that off? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:41 pm 
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**********
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I've always been pretty clueless about what defines or divides 'camps' or 'cultures'. It's my deficiency in life. Someone once called me a 'Wojtylan' because of my devotion to the exemplary example of Catholic living of the last Pope, John Paul 2. I think it might have been a jab... but I don't mind. I want to be in that camp anyway! 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Quote:
Is the Catholic community, as a whole, capable of creating a non-partisan online meeting place where the camps can come together on equal footing?
What would you think an equal footing entails?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
What would you think an equal footing entails?


From the other thread....

I just realized that the Catholic community is like a troubled marriage that needs marriage counseling. Hey, we're all imperfect, and who doesn't need marriage counseling sooner or later, especially in a 2,000 year old marriage.

The marriage counselor serves the function of being above the fray, no dog in the fight, an objective outsider, somebody who can listen without inserting their own agenda.

Thus, the kind of forum I'm referring to should not be hosted and operated by any kind of Catholic. It should be operated by a third party, an outsider. Bingo!

How about Buddhists? They're not even an Abrahamic religion, and if I understand correctly they aren't evangelical.

You guys willing to go to counseling with the Dalai Lama? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:10 pm 
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What's the current state of relations between the Catholic Church leadership and the Buddhist community? Anybody have anything on that? I don't recall any controversies, but I'm not in that loop.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Here's the problem with that scheme: It implicitly assumes that the "question everything" formula is correct, and so it is tilted in the direction of those who hold that there are no doctrinal absolutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Quote:
If the Catholic community of today, or the Church itself, can't find a way to organize an online church whose specific purpose is to be equally welcoming to any kind of Catholic, and not just a particular partisan camp, I start thinking things like....
This makes my point more clearly. "Any kind of Catholic" is as good as another--that's the position you seem to be espousing. If I disagree (and I do), a forum based on that premise will, in fact, be biased in favor of your view, because everyone would be required to act as if your position is correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Should PETA be welcoming to a little trapping, a little baby seal bashing . . .?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Here's the problem with that scheme: It implicitly assumes that the "question everything" formula is correct, and so it is tilted in the direction of those who hold that there are no doctrinal absolutes.


My scheme assumes that dialog in a neutral setting is helpful to the development of peace and understanding.

Such dialog is unlikely to result in a final settling of all issues, or total victory for any one party.

But a sincere effort might result in easing the acrimony, and building mutual respect.

Aren't Christians supposed to turn the other cheek and love their enemies? Here's your chance.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Quote:
This makes my point more clearly. "Any kind of Catholic" is as good as another--that's the position you seem to be espousing.


First, I am facing the fact that there are different flavors of Catholic.

Again, unless you are going to issue Church authorized ID cards, and turn away people who don't have them, this reality is a fact. Progressive Catholics are sitting next to you in Mass, whether you know it or not, and whether you like it or not.

The question is, how to most constructively deal with this reality? I'm attempting to make constructive suggestions, and am inviting you to do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
If the Catholic community of today, or the Church itself, can't find a way to organize an online church whose specific purpose is to be equally welcoming to any kind of Catholic, and not just a particular partisan camp, I start thinking things like....
This makes my point more clearly. "Any kind of Catholic" is as good as another--that's the position you seem to be espousing. If I disagree (and I do), a forum based on that premise will, in fact, be biased in favor of your view, because everyone would be required to act as if your position is correct.


Exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Ok, let's slow down and try something easier then.

I assume you attend church somewhere. Let's pretend that some of the people in the neighborhood have some issue with your church. Not an ideological issue, but a neighborhood issue, perhaps some concern about the church parking lot, car traffic in and out of the church, or something like that.

Are you willing to sit down and talk to those neighbors?

Or are you going to shout "My way or the highway!" over the fence?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Typist wrote:
What's the current state of relations between the Catholic Church leadership and the Buddhist community? Anybody have anything on that? I don't recall any controversies, but I'm not in that loop.

There's no such thing as "the" Buddhist community. They all disagree with one another, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Why should all ideas, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, be approached as on equal footing?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:58 pm 
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caleb wrote:
Why should all ideas, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, be approached as on equal footing?


All people, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, should be approached on an equal footing. It's called Christianity.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Criminally Insane Cucumber
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Typist wrote:
caleb wrote:
Why should all ideas, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, be approached as on equal footing?


All people, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, should be approached on an equal footing. It's called Christianity.

Why change the subject?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Typist wrote:
All people, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, should be approached on an equal footing. It's called Christianity.
In what sense should all people be approached on an equal footing? In civil society, we don't approach, say, a mass murderer as we approach a child. On the level of ideas, we don't approach someone who says that Africans are biologically inferior to Europeans on equal footing. All people and all ideas are not equal.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Quote:
In what sense should all people be approached on an equal footing? In civil society, we don't approach, say, a mass murderer as we approach a child.


Are you comparing those people sitting next to you in Mass, who don't agree with you, to mass murderers?

Quote:
On the level of ideas, we don't approach someone who says that Africans are biologically inferior to Europeans on equal footing. All people and all ideas are not equal.


Ideas and people are two different things. You and I are both people. We have different ideas.

Jesus said, turn the other cheek, and love your enemy. He doesn't demand you agree with everybody else on everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:23 pm 
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Typist wrote:
Jesus said, turn the other cheek, and love your enemy. He doesn't demand you agree with everybody else on everything.

He also said other things, such as that divorce is not possible. What do you think about that?


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 Post subject: Re: Liberal Catholics
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Typist wrote:
Are you comparing those people sitting next to you in Mass, who don't agree with you, to mass murderers?
No. I just expect a precision in language so that when someone tells me that "all people, in the Catholic Church or in any other venue, should be approached on an equal footing," he means what he's saying. After all, there are philosophies that use the principle of Christian love to equate Adolf Eichmann with his victims.

But I think you rather mean to say something else. Perhaps you're trying to say that all people of a certain sort should be approached on equal footing?
Typist wrote:
Ideas and people are two different things. You and I are both people. We have different ideas
How do you know that you and I have different ideas?
Typist wrote:
Jesus said, turn the other cheek, and love your enemy
Jesus also said that not one jot of the law would pass away till all was fulfilled.


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