Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 8 of 11   [ 207 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:36 am 
Offline
Our Lady's Gladiator
Our Lady's Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:26 am
Posts: 88509
Location: Revelation 11:19-12:1
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus
sorry for the confusion...my point being is that it is your opinion that they need to be addressed ... the Church has already addressed them ad infinitum...no need for any "addressing" :fyi:

did you bother reading the link...it said

Quote:
since limbo was never part of Church doctrine,


if that were the case, then obviously the Church has not changed what it never had (though i recall quite the difference of opinion on this board as to its place in Church teaching...iirc there was a huge thread here when this info first came out)

i'm wondering though... since the previous train of thought was unbaptized infants did not go to heaven, but were in limbo, why would that be a comfort to the parent... happy that they were not in hell... as would be suggested with the absence of baptism

also..the article erred when it said this
Quote:
Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning “border” or “edge,” was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptized dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.


there was, to the best of my knowledge, a differentiation between the Limbo of the Fathers and the Limbo of the Infants

ok...back to the original point of your OP


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:41 am 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 15751
dschiff wrote:
Sorry for the delay - had a thesis deadline that kept me occupied.

Limbo was ended by none other than the Pope.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo

Parents of unbaptized babies had that comfort for centuries, courtesy of Church teaching, now must grapple with a metaphysics sans limbo.

GKC, when has the churched claimed to be infallible? Since the beginning. Scripture, the papacy, etc. make claims to divinity.

See Cardinal Bellarmine on Galileo.
"The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures." .... "after it has been declared and finally decreed contrary to the Holy Scripture." "It would be just as heretical to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve, as it would be to deny the virgin birth of Christ, for both are declared by the Holy Ghost through the mouths of the prophets and apostles."


And faithfulservant, indeed my opinions on gay rights, women's rights, contraception, divorce and so on are my opinions (though shared by many).

We've gotten really far off the point here.

If anyone wants to return to the arguments that convince you of the truth of your religion, I'd prefer to go there.

Cheers.



RCs here, does the Bellarmine statement qualify as infallible, by the rules? I got my opinion.

And tell me what says the papacy is divine? And, based on your past performance, what to you mean by divine?

GKC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:42 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:32 pm
Posts: 122
Religion: Atheist
faithfulservant wrote:
sorry for the confusion...my point being is that it is your opinion that they need to be addressed ... the Church has already addressed them ad infinitum...no need for any "addressing" :fyi:

did you bother reading the link...it said

Quote:
since limbo was never part of Church doctrine,


if that were the case, then obviously the Church has not changed what it never had (though i recall quite the difference of opinion on this board as to its place in Church teaching...iirc there was a huge thread here when this info first came out)

i'm wondering though... since the previous train of thought was unbaptized infants did not go to heaven, but were in limbo, why would that be a comfort to the parent... happy that they were not in hell... as would be suggested with the absence of baptism

also..the article erred when it said this
Quote:
Limbo, which comes from the Latin word meaning “border” or “edge,” was considered by medieval theologians to be a state or place reserved for the unbaptized dead, including good people who lived before the coming of Christ.


there was, to the best of my knowledge, a differentiation between the Limbo of the Fathers and the Limbo of the Infants

ok...back to the original point of your OP



You're right that separate Limbos were conceived of.

Also, I am perfectly aware Limbo was not part of official doctrine. It was, however, taught for centuries. I think this ambiguity, in teaching hundreds of millions of people to believe something, and then not make it part of doctrine, is a fault of Catholicism, not a mistake of mine.

The issue is in claiming infallibility and then posing speculative metaphysics.
Why did they think Limbo existed in the first place? Any evidence?
Then to claim that it does not after centuries? Based on new evidence?

This is not scientific method. It seems to me, it is little more than imagination, buttressed by wishful thinking. I suppose this is my general distaste for theological speculation on unknown (and I would say imaginary) realms, in contrast to the precision, controls and peer-review of science.

Back to the key arguments for catholicism?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:48 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:32 pm
Posts: 122
Religion: Atheist
GKC wrote:

RCs here, does the Bellarmine statement qualify as infallible, by the rules? I got my opinion.

And tell me what says the papacy is divine? And, based on your past performance, what to you mean by divine?

GKC


Hi GKC. Bellarmine is not the pope, hence not infallible. But he is making a claim that the scripture is inviolable. He says dismissing the geocentric theory would be as rejecting the virgin birth, that they are exact truths. This just goes to show the history of making unsupported claims, in the face of evidence, and then revising them later. As a representative of the Church then, this is part of Catholic history of making and enforcing statements in strong ways and then revising them decades or centuries after conclusive evidence has come down. A flaw, I would say, though correction is of course preferable to tradition in light of new evidence.

What says the papacy is divine? Honestly, I have heard this claim my whole life, from books, movies, Catholics and non-Catholics. I heard the claim made by an archbishop in debate. A quick look at wikipedia refers me to the First Vatican Council in the mid 19th century.


"The infallible teachings of the Pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e.., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin."


The distinction between infallibility and impeccability is intriguing to me. Perhaps you can put it in a clearer context, GXC.

Do you think the Pope is infallible? Does he make mistakes?
Does he have a special connection with God or Jesus?
Do all priests have a special connection with God or Jesus?
I'd be curious about your responses.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:29 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 15751
dschiff wrote:
GKC wrote:

RCs here, does the Bellarmine statement qualify as infallible, by the rules? I got my opinion.

And tell me what says the papacy is divine? And, based on your past performance, what to you mean by divine?

GKC


Hi GKC. Bellarmine is not the pope, hence not infallible. But he is making a claim that the scripture is inviolable. He says dismissing the geocentric theory would be as rejecting the virgin birth, that they are exact truths. This just goes to show the history of making unsupported claims, in the face of evidence, and then revising them later. As a representative of the Church then, this is part of Catholic history of making and enforcing statements in strong ways and then revising them decades or centuries after conclusive evidence has come down. A flaw, I would say, though correction is of course preferable to tradition in light of new evidence.

What says the papacy is divine? Honestly, I have heard this claim my whole life, from books, movies, Catholics and non-Catholics. I heard the claim made by an archbishop in debate. A quick look at wikipedia refers me to the First Vatican Council in the mid 19th century.


"The infallible teachings of the Pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e.., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin."


The distinction between infallibility and impeccability is intriguing to me. Perhaps you can put it in a clearer context, GXC.

Do you think the Pope is infallible? Does he make mistakes?
Does he have a special connection with God or Jesus?
Do all priests have a special connection with God or Jesus?
I'd be curious about your responses.



I suspect you need a grounding in the Ordinary and the Extraordinary Magisterium, as a start.

And you are saying that the wiki-quote, in your mind, supports your assertion that the Papacy is divine? And what is your definition of divine again? And what is an infallible teaching of a Pope? Movies, friends, extra, who cares. Give me a source. I do like sources.

And what is your understanding of the concept of degrees of theological certainly, as discussed, for example, in Ott's FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA?

I kinda like your list of questions.

1a. No. 1b. Yes.

2a. Yes. 2b. Yes.

3. Yes.

If you hear subdued snickering in the background, while looking over the answers to your questions, most here will know why.

GKC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:55 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 27652
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
dschiff wrote:
I was not writing a publishable paper (though I do have such papers), but addressing a simple point.

Why not post some of them here so we can read them? Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:18 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68321
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Switch the 1a answer to "yes" and I will agree with GKC.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:03 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 27652
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I am snickering at GKC. :fyi:

:shock:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Subduedly. :fyi:

:swoon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:08 pm 
Offline
King of Cool

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 70486
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
I've always thought that the word 'infallible' was the wrong word to use, I know it's established and all but....it suggests that the Pope 'cannot make a mistake', in the words of the poster.....that isn't really the point, the real point is that the Pope is able to teach definitively, definitively meaning that it cannot be overturned, perhaps a word like 'irreformable' might be better. I almost never use the word 'infallible' when in argument or discussion, it is too prone to misunderstanding. I tend to prefer language like 'the Pope taught it with the highest degree of authority' or something similar.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:10 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68321
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Subduedly. :fyi:

My allergies are particularly bad this year. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:44 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 15751
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Switch the 1a answer to "yes" and I will agree with GKC.



GKC and thee differ on that point?

How could this be?

GKC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:46 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 27652
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Subduedly. :fyi:

My allergies are particularly bad this year. :fyi:

Gezundheit. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:47 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 27652
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
GKC wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Switch the 1a answer to "yes" and I will agree with GKC.



GKC and thee differ on that point?

How could this be?

GKC

This, my friend, is a mystery to all of us. We hope the disagreement will soon come to an end. :fyi: :pray:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:49 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 15751
Doom wrote:
I've always thought that the word 'infallible' was the wrong word to use, I know it's established and all but....it suggests that the Pope 'cannot make a mistake', in the words of the poster.....that isn't really the point, the real point is that the Pope is able to teach definitively, definitively meaning that it cannot be overturned, perhaps a word like 'irreformable' might be better. I almost never use the word 'infallible' when in argument or discussion, it is too prone to misunderstanding. I tend to prefer language like 'the Pope taught it with the highest degree of authority' or something similar.




Not gonna comment. But I don't think this is well conceived, as to the definition of the Papal, personal charism of infallibility.

OTOH, I don't think the OP has a grasp on what he is fumbling with.

GKC


Last edited by GKC on Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:50 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 15751
gherkin wrote:
GKC wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Switch the 1a answer to "yes" and I will agree with GKC.



GKC and thee differ on that point?

How could this be?

GKC

This, my friend, is a mystery to all of us. We hope the disagreement will soon come to an end. :fyi: :pray:




Fair enough and thank you.

But that is not quite the sense in which the question was asked.

GKC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:51 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 27652
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
GKC wrote:
But that is not quite the sense in which the question was asked.

No, I didn't reckon so, to be honest.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:52 pm 
Offline
Some Poor Bibliophile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 15751
gherkin wrote:
GKC wrote:
But that is not quite the sense in which the question was asked.

No, I didn't reckon so, to be honest.



Sometime I am too subdued and subtle.

GKC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:03 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68321
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
If you are feeling Jacobean, you can be subtil instead. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:04 pm 
Offline
Criminally Insane Cucumber
Criminally Insane Cucumber
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:20 pm
Posts: 27652
Location: The countertop
Religion: The True One
Church Affiliations: OblSB
Gezundheit. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Explain the key arguments for Catholicism to an atheist?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:06 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68321
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
GKC wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Switch the 1a answer to "yes" and I will agree with GKC.



GKC and thee differ on that point?

How could this be?

Because I am right. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 8 of 11   [ 207 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: