Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 41 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:55 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.

Yet...scripture is silent about the penance. Wierd, huh? Almost like nobody ever considered penance until a couple thousand years later when the catholic church decided to teach it.


You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. [17] And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. [18] And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died: and the servants of David feared to tell him, that the child was dead. For they said: Behold when the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he would not hearken to our voice: how much more will he afflict himself if we tell him that the child is dead? [19] But when David saw his servants whispering, he understood that the child was dead: and he said to his servants: Is the child dead? They answered him: He is dead. [20] Then David arose from the ground, and washed and anointed himself: and when he had changed his apparel, he went into the house of the Lord: and worshipped, and then he came into his own house, and he called for bread, and ate.

[21] And his servants said to him: What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive, but when the child was dead, thou didst rise up, and eat bread. [22] And he said: While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept for him: for I said: Who knoweth whether the Lord may not give him to me, and the child may live? [23] But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Shall I be able to bring him back any more? I shall go to him rather: but he shall not return to me.


ok? You get penance from that? Notice he didn't keep doing it once the child was dead? He wasn't hoping to get him out of purgatory.


Penance is not something that you get. Penance is something that you do. David did penance for the child. That is more blatantly obvious than the sun in the sky on a clear day. Babies don't go to Purgatory. Only those with personal sin already forgiven but whose temporal punishments remain go to Purgatory. Once again, you speak of things of which you have no knowledge.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:44 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.

Yet...scripture is silent about the penance. Wierd, huh? Almost like nobody ever considered penance until a couple thousand years later when the catholic church decided to teach it.


You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. [17] And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. [18] And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died: and the servants of David feared to tell him, that the child was dead. For they said: Behold when the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he would not hearken to our voice: how much more will he afflict himself if we tell him that the child is dead? [19] But when David saw his servants whispering, he understood that the child was dead: and he said to his servants: Is the child dead? They answered him: He is dead. [20] Then David arose from the ground, and washed and anointed himself: and when he had changed his apparel, he went into the house of the Lord: and worshipped, and then he came into his own house, and he called for bread, and ate.

[21] And his servants said to him: What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive, but when the child was dead, thou didst rise up, and eat bread. [22] And he said: While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept for him: for I said: Who knoweth whether the Lord may not give him to me, and the child may live? [23] But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Shall I be able to bring him back any more? I shall go to him rather: but he shall not return to me.


ok? You get penance from that? Notice he didn't keep doing it once the child was dead? He wasn't hoping to get him out of purgatory.


Penance is not something that you get. Penance is something that you do. David did penance for the child. That is more blatantly obvious than the sun in the sky on a clear day. Babies don't go to Purgatory. Only those with personal sin already forgiven but whose temporal punishments remain go to Purgatory. Once again, you speak of things of which you have no knowledge.


The scripture says nothing about doing penance for the baby. I'm sorry...it just doesn't. What David did was the same thing I do for a sick friend--pray for them, asking God to make them better. It's not penance, and there is no merit that they gain by my actions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:51 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground.


The scripture says nothing about doing penance for the baby. I'm sorry...it just doesn't. What David did was the same thing I do for a sick friend--pray for them, asking God to make them better. It's not penance, and there is no merit that they gain by my actions.


Prayer can be supplication, thanksgiving, and penitential. Do you also fast for your friends and lay prostrate on the ground for them?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:55 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground.


The scripture says nothing about doing penance for the baby. I'm sorry...it just doesn't. What David did was the same thing I do for a sick friend--pray for them, asking God to make them better. It's not penance, and there is no merit that they gain by my actions.


Prayer can be supplication, thanksgiving, and penitential. Do you also fast for your friends and lay prostrate on the ground for them?


My prayers are not meritorious for my friends. It's not a special formula that if we do A + B, we get C. That's what your talk of penance strikes me as. God didn't give us a recipe to roll our own--he only asks that we depend on him.


Last edited by Calvinist on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:01 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground.


The scripture says nothing about doing penance for the baby. I'm sorry...it just doesn't. What David did was the same thing I do for a sick friend--pray for them, asking God to make them better. It's not penance, and there is no merit that they gain by my actions.


Prayer can be supplication, thanksgiving, and penitential. Do you also fast for your friends and lay prostrate on the ground for them?


My prayers are not meritorious for my friends.


Then I am wondering why you bother praying them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:03 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground.


The scripture says nothing about doing penance for the baby. I'm sorry...it just doesn't. What David did was the same thing I do for a sick friend--pray for them, asking God to make them better. It's not penance, and there is no merit that they gain by my actions.


Prayer can be supplication, thanksgiving, and penitential. Do you also fast for your friends and lay prostrate on the ground for them?


My prayers are not meritorious for my friends.


Then I am wondering why you bother praying them.



Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:28 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Then I am wondering why you bother praying them.



Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Well, then let us deal with what you are saying.

What is the purpose of prayer?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:11 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Then I am wondering why you bother praying them.



Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Well, then let us deal with what you are saying.

What is the purpose of prayer?


It teaches us to depend on God, as we make our requests to him. Sometimes he does give us what we request, sometimes not. Jesus said we need to pray according to God's will. The "Our Father" is a good template for it. We praise God, we acknowledge our dependence on him, we request his provision for us, and his protection for us.

But it's not a simple quid pro quo that if we do this.....we get that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:14 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Then I am wondering why you bother praying them.



Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Well, then let us deal with what you are saying.

What is the purpose of prayer?


It teaches us to depend on God, as we make our requests to him.


Do we not also pray to thank Him?

Do we not also pray to tell Him how sorry we are for having offended Him?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:17 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Then I am wondering why you bother praying them.



Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Well, then let us deal with what you are saying.

What is the purpose of prayer?


It teaches us to depend on God, as we make our requests to him.


Do we not also pray to thank Him?

Do we not also pray to tell Him how sorry we are for having offended Him?


Of course.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:19 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Do we not also pray to tell Him how sorry we are for having offended Him?


Of course.


Is there no merit in offering these prayers to God?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:20 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Do we not also pray to tell Him how sorry we are for having offended Him?


Of course.


Is there no merit in offering these prayers to God?

We can't butter him up and earn brownie points by prayer, no.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:53 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Do we not also pray to tell Him how sorry we are for having offended Him?


Of course.


Is there no merit in offering these prayers to God?

no.


Then what is the purpose of praying? What was the purpose of Moses praying to God to not destroy Israel and make His covenant with Moses and his descendants?

What kind of lunacy is this:

That thou mayest hearken to the supplication of thy servant and of thy people Israel, whatsoever they shall pray for in this place, and hear them in the place of thy dwelling in heaven; and when thou hearest, shew them mercy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:36 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:10 pm
Posts: 13093
Location: Inverted Cross domain
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
beng wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage. Are you an ancient Israelite living under the Law? I'm glad I'm not. Romans says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom 8:1). Why is there this continued fascination with paying for your own sin?


Do you think the OT God lied when He forgave David's sin? Was his sin forgiven or not?


Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.

Yet...scripture is silent about the penance. Wierd, huh? Almost like nobody ever considered penance until a couple thousand years later when the catholic church decided to teach it.


Was David's sin forgiven or not?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:06 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 534
Religion: Evangelical
beng wrote:

Was David's sin forgiven or not?


Yes. That has what to do with the question of indulgences or penance?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:05 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Was David's sin forgiven or not?


Yes. That has what to do with the question of indulgences or penance?


What was David doing fasting and lying prostate on the floor?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:13 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 6067
Location: Illinois
Religion: Catholic
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Was David's sin forgiven or not?


Yes. That has what to do with the question of indulgences or penance?


What was David doing fasting and lying prostate on the floor?

Doing penance and praying God's indulgence?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:38 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:38 pm
Posts: 5512
Religion: Catholic
Calvinist wrote:




Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Seriously? Did anyone mention anything, or even Scripture say anything about 'demanding' anything of God? And I notice you skipped right over Pax's question about whether or not you fast or lay prostrate on the ground. You certainly pick and choose what you answer, and you really like to answer a question with a question instead of answering them. Seems very dishonest in a discussion of faith. And how would you know that Kenneth Copeland is a Word of Faith is a heresy? Are you infallibly making a statement of faith?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:40 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Gracie2004 wrote:
Calvinist wrote:




Sorry...I edited the above post before you responded. What you're saying just strikes me as some sort of Holy Prayer recipe we follow. If you do A plus B, you get C. I don't see that God gives us that authority to demand that sort of response from him. What you're saying isn't much different than the Word of Faith heresy you see Kenneth Copeland shilling on tv.


Seriously? Did anyone mention anything, or even Scripture say anything about 'demanding' anything of God? And I notice you skipped right over Pax's question about whether or not you fast or lay prostrate on the ground. You certainly pick and choose what you answer, and you really like to answer a question with a question instead of answering them. Seems very dishonest in a discussion of faith. And how would you know that Kenneth Copeland is a Word of Faith is a heresy? Are you infallibly making a statement of faith?


A man walks up to a Rabbi, and says, "Why do you Jews always answer a question with a question?"

And the Rabbi responds, "Why do you ask?"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:57 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:10 pm
Posts: 13093
Location: Inverted Cross domain
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Was David's sin forgiven or not?


Yes. That has what to do with the question of indulgences or penance?


Because he still had to suffer the consequence of his sin to which you erroneously denied.

    2 Samuel 12:13
    13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, * the child that is born to you shall die." 15 Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. ... 18 On the seventh day the child died. ...

This proves that even after sin is forgiven there's something left that remains (to which you denied). One of the purpose of indulgence is to get rid of this remains. Indulgence provided by the Church is the collective penance of the Saints the Church [Col 1:24], and more importantly, Christ. With this indulgence we do not have to do the arduous penance but lighter penance (10 Hail Marys).


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 41 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to:  
cron