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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:59 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
No. God declared to Abraham that He was his protector and that his reward was exceeding great BEFORE Abraham made his act of faith. God had already decided what Abraham was going to do and then He supplied Abraham with the grace to do it.

I'm sorry pax...I can lead you to the scripture but I can't make you see it. You're just reading stuff into it that isn't there. All I can suggest is that you read Romans 4-5 again. Paul lays it out and he references Abraham. He was clearly righteous before he did anything to please God. To suggest otherwise is eisegesis.


In which verse does God declare Abraham righteous by faith? In which verse does God declare He is already Abraham's protector and promise Abraham a reward? You are putting v. 6 ahead of v. 1. God is already Abraham's protector and God has already declared Abraham will be rewarded BEFORE Abraham believes.

The problem with the theology you present is that you make God some kind of circus master who makes His faithful jump through hoops to prove to Him they have faith. You also make the source of that faith the one believing, as if the one believing has brought about their own salvation by believing, and now must prove to God through a series of works devoid of any merit that they really do believe. If such is the case, however, then God already knows who has genuine faith. He is, after all, omniscient, and you need to explain why the omnicient God requires further proof.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:16 am 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
No. God declared to Abraham that He was his protector and that his reward was exceeding great BEFORE Abraham made his act of faith. God had already decided what Abraham was going to do and then He supplied Abraham with the grace to do it.

I'm sorry pax...I can lead you to the scripture but I can't make you see it. You're just reading stuff into it that isn't there. All I can suggest is that you read Romans 4-5 again. Paul lays it out and he references Abraham. He was clearly righteous before he did anything to please God. To suggest otherwise is eisegesis.


In which verse does God declare Abraham righteous by faith? In which verse does God declare He is already Abraham's protector and promise Abraham a reward? You are putting v. 6 ahead of v. 1. God is already Abraham's protector and God has already declared Abraham will be rewarded BEFORE Abraham believes.

Was he Abraham's protector before or after circumcision?
Quote:
The problem with the theology you present is that you make God some kind of circus master who makes His faithful jump through hoops to prove to Him they have faith.

ok? We're not the ones suggesting we're good enough to do good things to buy God's love.
Quote:
You also make the source of that faith the one believing, as if the one believing has brought about their own salvation by believing, and now must prove to God through a series of works devoid of any merit that they really do believe. If such is the case, however, then God already knows who has genuine faith. He is, after all, omniscient, and you need to explain why the omnicient God requires further proof.


Nope. No one can believe unless he is called. Romans 8. Remember....we are all born dead in our sins....it's only by God's grace that he allows us to receive his salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:31 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
No. God declared to Abraham that He was his protector and that his reward was exceeding great BEFORE Abraham made his act of faith. God had already decided what Abraham was going to do and then He supplied Abraham with the grace to do it.

I'm sorry pax...I can lead you to the scripture but I can't make you see it. You're just reading stuff into it that isn't there. All I can suggest is that you read Romans 4-5 again. Paul lays it out and he references Abraham. He was clearly righteous before he did anything to please God. To suggest otherwise is eisegesis.


In which verse does God declare Abraham righteous by faith? In which verse does God declare He is already Abraham's protector and promise Abraham a reward? You are putting v. 6 ahead of v. 1. God is already Abraham's protector and God has already declared Abraham will be rewarded BEFORE Abraham believes.

Was he Abraham's protector before or after circumcision?


Here is the progression:

1). God identifies Himself as Abraham's protector and promises Abraham that he will indeed receive a reward.

2). Abraham believes God and it is credited to Abraham as righteousness.

3). God commands Abraham to now enter in a covenant with Him, and the sign of that covenant is circumcision.

How is election in Christ different?
Quote:
Quote:
The problem with the theology you present is that you make God some kind of circus master who makes His faithful jump through hoops to prove to Him they have faith.

ok? We're not the ones suggesting we're good enough to do good things to buy God's love.


Neither does the holy Roman Catholic Church preach such an execrable doctrine.

Quote:
Quote:
You also make the source of that faith the one believing, as if the one believing has brought about their own salvation by believing, and now must prove to God through a series of works devoid of any merit that they really do believe. If such is the case, however, then God already knows who has genuine faith. He is, after all, omniscient, and you need to explain why the omnicient God requires further proof.


Nope. No one can believe unless he is called. Romans 8. Remember....we are all born dead in our sins....it's only by God's grace that he allows us to receive his salvation.


Exactly. So, what does the Scripture say is the act of being reborn in Christ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:43 pm 
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pax wrote:

Here is the progression:

1). God identifies Himself as Abraham's protector and promises Abraham that he will indeed receive a reward.

2). Abraham believes God and it is credited to Abraham as righteousness.

3). God commands Abraham to now enter in a covenant with Him, and the sign of that covenant is circumcision.

How is election in Christ different?




It's not. That all looks good. But we need to remember the order of 2 and 3. Just as Abraham was righteous from faith alone, we are also righteous from faith alone. We then go and get baptized as a seal of that promise. But the baptism itself is not for salvation.

Quote:

Neither does the holy Roman Catholic Church preach such an execrable doctrine.


The catholic church does teach that works are meritorious though--or that we can earn God's favor by our works.


Quote:


Exactly. So, what does the Scripture say is the act of being reborn in Christ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "water" in that passage refers to birth. Read a couple verses on and Jesus reiterates it. Go further and we see that Jesus declared himself to be as the snake was lifted up in the desert. People looked to the snake and were saved--and likewise, we are saved by looking to Christ on the cross.
Quote:

Romans 6:3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Yet....we are told a chapter earlier we are saved by Grace. Again...you are pulling a proof-text out of context to justify your point.
Quote:
Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Nothing there about baptism. It's faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name. [/color]


The "calling on his name" is what saved...not the baptism part. You keep mixing that up.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
So, what does the Scripture say is the act of being reborn in Christ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "water" in that passage refers to birth.


:laughhard
Quote:
Quote:

Romans 6:3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Yet....we are told a chapter earlier we are saved by Grace. Again...you are pulling a proof-text out of context to justify your point.


Grace? What happened to faith alone?
Quote:
Quote:
Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Nothing there about baptism. It's faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.


You cannot have two "alones". It is either "faith alone" or "grace alone". Take yer pick.

(Of course, the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches "grace alone" :fyi: )
Quote:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.


The "calling on his name" is what saved...not the baptism part. You keep mixing that up.


The text clearly and unequivocavly says that it is Baptism which washes away sins. That is what the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. Christ alone saves. Baptism, which Christ commanded, washes away sins.

See? No conflict with the Scriptures.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Baptism

Foreshadowed in OT Ezek 36:25; 1Pet 3:20-21
John's baptism preparatory Mk 1:4; 8; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 19:4
Administered by disciples Jn 4:2
In Christ's name Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; Rev 14:1;22:4
In name of Trinity Mt 28:19
For all mankind Mt 28:19; Mk 16:15-16; Lk 24:47; Acts 2:38
Baptized into Christ 1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27
Baptized into Christ's death Rom 6:3
Baptized to new life Rom 6:4; Tit 3:5
With water and Holy Spirit Jn 3:5; Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5
Only one baptism Eph 4:5
Necessity of baptism Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5
For our redemption 1Jn 5:6
For sanctified 1Cor 6:11; Eph 5:26
For justification 1Cor 6:11
Our assurance of resurrection Rom 6:3-5; 1Cor 15:29
A free gift of God Tit 3:5
Forgives sin 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 2:38; 22:16

God does all these things for us through BAPTISM


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:38 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
So, what does the Scripture say is the act of being reborn in Christ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "water" in that passage refers to birth.


:laughhard
Quote:
Quote:

Romans 6:3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Yet....we are told a chapter earlier we are saved by Grace. Again...you are pulling a proof-text out of context to justify your point.


Grace? What happened to faith alone?
Quote:
Quote:
Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Nothing there about baptism. It's faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.


You cannot have two "alones". It is either "faith alone" or "grace alone". Take yer pick.

(Of course, the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches "grace alone" :fyi: )
Quote:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.


The "calling on his name" is what saved...not the baptism part. You keep mixing that up.


The text clearly and unequivocavly says that it is Baptism which washes away sins. That is what the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. Christ alone saves. Baptism, which Christ commanded, washes away sins.

See? No conflict with the Scriptures.



Is it possible to be saved before baptism?


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
So, what does the Scripture say is the act of being reborn in Christ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "water" in that passage refers to birth.


:laughhard
Quote:
Quote:

Romans 6:3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Yet....we are told a chapter earlier we are saved by Grace. Again...you are pulling a proof-text out of context to justify your point.


Grace? What happened to faith alone?
Quote:
Quote:
Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Nothing there about baptism. It's faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.


You cannot have two "alones". It is either "faith alone" or "grace alone". Take yer pick.

(Of course, the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches "grace alone" :fyi: )
Quote:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.


The "calling on his name" is what saved...not the baptism part. You keep mixing that up.


The text clearly and unequivocavly says that it is Baptism which washes away sins. That is what the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. Christ alone saves. Baptism, which Christ commanded, washes away sins.

See? No conflict with the Scriptures.



Is it possible to be saved before without baptism?


Under the New Covenant: NO.

Without Baptism you have no part in the Covenant.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:19 am 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
So, what does the Scripture say is the act of being reborn in Christ?

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The "water" in that passage refers to birth.


:laughhard
Quote:
Quote:

Romans 6:3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

Yet....we are told a chapter earlier we are saved by Grace. Again...you are pulling a proof-text out of context to justify your point.


Grace? What happened to faith alone?
Quote:
Quote:
Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Nothing there about baptism. It's faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone.


You cannot have two "alones". It is either "faith alone" or "grace alone". Take yer pick.

(Of course, the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches "grace alone" :fyi: )
Quote:
Quote:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.


The "calling on his name" is what saved...not the baptism part. You keep mixing that up.


The text clearly and unequivocavly says that it is Baptism which washes away sins. That is what the holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. Christ alone saves. Baptism, which Christ commanded, washes away sins.

See? No conflict with the Scriptures.



Is it possible to be saved before without baptism?


Under the New Covenant: NO.

Without Baptism you have no part in the Covenant.



So the thief on the cross wasn't saved?

Or in Acts 10 when people received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism? Were they not saved? Or in Acts 2, when it appears that the Spirit came upon people that were not baptised?


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:40 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
So the thief on the cross wasn't saved?


He was still under the Old Covenant.

Quote:
Or in Acts 10 when people received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism? Were they not saved? Or in Acts 2, when it appears that the Spirit came upon people that were not baptised?


You confuse receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved. You also confuse entering into God's New Covenant with being saved.

But, tell me, if they were saved why was it so necessary to get them baptized? Why did Peter "order" Cornelius and his household to be baptized? Why did Peter say: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?" Why would it be possible that the water of Baptism could be forbidden (as his words imply)?


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:49 am 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
So the thief on the cross wasn't saved?


He was still under the Old Covenant.

He was saved by Jesus.
Quote:
Quote:
Or in Acts 10 when people received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism? Were they not saved? Or in Acts 2, when it appears that the Spirit came upon people that were not baptised?


You confuse receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved. You also confuse entering into God's New Covenant with being saved.

You think it's possible for a non-saved person to receive the Holy Spirit?
Quote:

But, tell me, if they were saved why was it so necessary to get them baptized? Why did Peter "order" Cornelius and his household to be baptized? Why did Peter say: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?" Why would it be possible that the water of Baptism could be forbidden (as his words imply)?


It was a visible expression of joining the New Covenant. It wasn't salvific in nature...but it was commanded by Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:07 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
So the thief on the cross wasn't saved?


He was still under the Old Covenant.

He was saved by Jesus.


Yes. Under the Old Covenant. The same way Abraham was saved by Jesus.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Or in Acts 10 when people received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism? Were they not saved? Or in Acts 2, when it appears that the Spirit came upon people that were not baptised?


You confuse receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved. You also confuse entering into God's New Covenant with being saved.

You think it's possible for a non-saved person to receive the Holy Spirit?


Of course. Even a donkey.
Quote:
Quote:

But, tell me, if they were saved why was it so necessary to get them baptized? Why did Peter "order" Cornelius and his household to be baptized? Why did Peter say: "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?" Why would it be possible that the water of Baptism could be forbidden (as his words imply)?


It was a visible expression of joining the New Covenant. It wasn't salvific in nature...but it was commanded by Christ.


Where is "Baptism is a non-salvific visible expression of joining the New Covenant" to be found in Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:04 pm 
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pax wrote:

Yes. Under the Old Covenant. The same way Abraham was saved by Jesus.


He was told by the crucified Christ that he was saved.


Quote:
Of course. Even a donkey.


So Balaam's donkey speaking was the same as the Holy Spirit entering a person in the NT?


Quote:

Where is "Baptism is a non-salvific visible expression of joining the New Covenant" to be found in Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.


Acts 10:48


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:

Yes. Under the Old Covenant. The same way Abraham was saved by Jesus.


He was told by the crucified Christ that he was saved.


So was Abraham (John 8:56)


Quote:
Quote:
Of course. Even a donkey.


So Balaam's donkey speaking was the same as the Holy Spirit entering a person in the NT?


Nu. 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said: What have I done to thee? Why strikest thou me, lo, now this third time?

I did not say it was the same.


Quote:
Quote:

Where is "Baptism is a non-salvific visible expression of joining the New Covenant" to be found in Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.


Acts 10:48


And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

Sorry. The words "non-salvific" are not there.

Try again. (Hint: Mark 16:16)


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:29 pm 
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pax wrote:
So was Abraham (John 8:56)

Abraham had faith in the coming Messiah. The thief on the cross was saved by the Messiah in the flesh. I get your point though...Christ had not died at the point that the thief was told he would be saved. Of course, Jesus did die before the thief was saved though.


Quote:

I did not say it was the same.




I must have missed your point then. What was your point in mentioning the story?

Quote:
Sorry. The words "non-salvific" are not there.

Try again. (Hint: Mark 16:16)


The words "for salvation" aren't there, either. These folks were already in Christ.

And Mark 16:16 says nothing about baptism for salvation. It says whoever believes and is baptised is saved....but condemns those that don't believe...not those that aren't baptised. The point is that lack of baptism does not mean one is damned. It's the lack of belief.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
And Mark 16:16 says nothing about baptism for salvation. It says whoever believes and is baptised is saved....but condemns those that don't believe...not those that aren't baptised. The point is that lack of baptism does not mean one is damned. It's the lack of belief.


... believes AND is baptized ...

the AND makes them both necessary, if one is negated so is the other by default, no need to mention it.


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
And Mark 16:16 says nothing about baptism for salvation. It says whoever believes and is baptised is saved.


:laughhard


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:06 am 
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obviously "and" in the greek and the proper context does not mean what we think it should mean :roll: :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:34 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
And Mark 16:16 says nothing about baptism for salvation. It says whoever believes and is baptised is saved.


:laughhard


Umm......LOLOLOL!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: CALVINIST : BAPTISM
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Methinks that Cal went bye-bye :fyi:

It is a difficult thing to be faced with your own inconsistencies.


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