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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:52 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas reject this notion [the Assumption].


Parker -- I insist you present the writings of these two Popes rejecting the Assumption. Such documents, if authentic, would be life-changing revelations to us Catholics here.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:30 am 
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I think it is apparent that haparker cannot comply with your request, but I'm going to insist that he at least make an attempt or admit he cannot comply. We are all getting weary of his grandiose claims of superior knowledge with no evidence to support it.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:35 am 
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Here is the document in question concerning the Assumption: http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/ ... elito.html

It does not take a rocket scientist to readily see that it was written by a Gnostic or a Collyridian, and hence condemned.

Here is the document of Pope Gelasius condemning said writing: http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/ ... retum.html

Unfortunately, it is in Latin. I will wait until Parker translates it for us and gives us the relevant parts to back up his bogus claim that the dogma of the Assumption is condemned in that decree.

Your feet are in the fire now, Parker.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:37 am 
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pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).


1. Kudos for citing the sources; I couldn't believe you'd take me up on a challenge.

2. A.D. 377 (almost A.D. 400) shows there's a missing 400 years of history that does not make the doctrine 2000 years old. Furthermore, I do not believe all the fathers agreed.

Parker


You're concerned about 400 years of history missing, but not about 1500 years of history missing.

Do you think you could find a writing from a Christian in the 4th century talking about faith alone?



I can provide you a writing from a Christian in the 1st Century talking about faith alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).


1. Kudos for citing the sources; I couldn't believe you'd take me up on a challenge.

2. A.D. 377 (almost A.D. 400) shows there's a missing 400 years of history that does not make the doctrine 2000 years old. Furthermore, I do not believe all the fathers agreed.

Parker


You're concerned about 400 years of history missing, but not about 1500 years of history missing.

Do you think you could find a writing from a Christian in the 4th century talking about faith alone?



I can provide you a writing from a Christian in the 1st Century talking about faith alone.


And then from every century after that, or it is merely your own interpretation.

You really need to read this:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther01.html

Martin Luther wrote:
I know very well that in Romans 3 the word solum is not in the Greek or Latin text — the papists did not have to teach me that. It is fact that the letters s-o-l-a are not there.


He gives good reasons why he included the word -- because of how German sentences are constructed.

But, I ask you, is the method of constructing a German sentence enough to base your entire theology upon?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Jackie wrote:
The Church does not say one way or the other if she died, merely that when the course of her earthly life was finished, she was taken body and soul into heavenly glory. We are free to believe that she died or that she did not die.


The problem is that the Church's teaching is nothing more than speculative theology; the magisterium has gone well beyond its boundaries to assert something that has no backing in either history or scripture. Hence, the doctrine is entirely baseless.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:14 pm 
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pax wrote:
But, I ask you, is the method of constructing a German sentence enough to base your entire theology upon?


A German interpretation of the text is quite logical and straightforward; there is no ambiguity in the language itself. (e.g. 'Virgin' in German is 'Jungfrau' which literally means 'young woman') There really no ambiguity in the text.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:16 pm 
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pax wrote:
Parker -- I insist you present the writings of these two Popes rejecting the Assumption. Such documents, if authentic, would be life-changing revelations to us Catholics here.


Pax,

Why should I? You haven't provided a document that shows a notion that tradition is defined as the Catholic Church describes it. You only cite sources that mention 'tradition' in the context; hence, the points upon this notion is completely baseless.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:20 pm 
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pax wrote:
Unfortunately, it is in Latin. I will wait until Parker translates it for us and gives us the relevant parts to back up his bogus claim that the dogma of the Assumption is condemned in that decree.

Your feet are in the fire now, Parker.


Well the arguments you cited are coming from the same source I cited (Bill Webster); thanks for using the source.

However, seeing that this document Transitus Mariae is not an official document of the Catholic Church (or an ECF creed or commentary by a member of the Roman Magisterium), one should be quick to point out that this document has no basis for historicity or authority.

Who's feet are in the fire now? :laughhard

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:44 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
Unfortunately, it is in Latin. I will wait until Parker translates it for us and gives us the relevant parts to back up his bogus claim that the dogma of the Assumption is condemned in that decree.

Your feet are in the fire now, Parker.


Well the arguments you cited are coming from the same source I cited (Bill Webster); thanks for using the source.

However, seeing that this document Transitus Mariae is not an official document of the Catholic Church (or an ECF creed or commentary by a member of the Roman Magisterium), one should be quick to point out that this document has no basis for historicity or authority.

Who's feet are in the fire now?



Are you seriously that logically challenged?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:45 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
But, I ask you, is the method of constructing a German sentence enough to base your entire theology upon?


A German interpretation of the text is quite logical and straightforward; there is no ambiguity in the language itself. (e.g. 'Virgin' in German is 'Jungfrau' which literally means 'young woman') There really no ambiguity in the text.

Parker


All "young women" are virgins? What planet have you been living on? That is why we reject the word "almah" inserted into Isaias 7 and stick with the Septuagint "parthenos".


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
I can provide you a writing from a Christian in the 1st Century talking about faith alone.


Yes, we are familiar with such intellectually dishonest exegesis.

I've obliterated plenty of such arguments. I recall the perpetrator was Webster, Bugay (beggarsall) and Rudd (bible.ca).


And why are you reading the fathers through the lens of Webster, Bugay and Rudd? Go read it yourselves. You don't need them. You don't want to do the hard work? You only want quick result that favor the Protestant view because you're pre-disposed to the view that Protestantism is right and Catholicism is apostate instead of being neutral?

Or maybe if you read it yourselves you would become confuse and question your Protestant faith so you feel the need to read it through the lens of others?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:27 pm 
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pax wrote:
All "young women" are virgins? What planet have you been living on? That is why we reject the word "almah" inserted into Isaias 7 and stick with the Septuagint "parthenos".

Usually, if one wants to understand the 'interpretation' properly, then one needs to let the context speak for itself. Even though 'almah' does not specifically have one generic definition, oftentimes the surrounding context determines what the word means.

Not all 'young women' are virgins; however, there would be other words to describe women who are young, but are not virgins. Back in Luther's time (and perhaps today), most young women would not be considered married or harlots because they were not sexually active.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:30 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
All "young women" are virgins? What planet have you been living on? That is why we reject the word "almah" inserted into Isaias 7 and stick with the Septuagint "parthenos".

Usually, if one wants to understand the 'interpretation' properly, then one needs to let the context speak for itself. Even though 'almah' does not specifically have one generic definition, oftentimes the surrounding context determines what the word means.

Not all 'young women' are virgins; however, there would be other words to describe women who are young, but are not virgins. Back in Luther's time (and perhaps today), most young women would not be considered married or harlots because they were not sexually active.

Parker


Well, does the Hebrew text say "virgin" or "young woman"?

What does the Greek text say?

Remember, the Septuagint, which is cited in the NT, is older than the Dead Sea Scrolls by about 200 years, and older than the Masoretic Texts by about 1000 years.

PS -- Are you really that logically challenged?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Quote:
Yes, we are familiar with such intellectually dishonest exegesis.

Catholics should the last ones to do the talking.

Quote:
Go read it yourselves. You don't need them. You don't want to do the hard work?

Agreed, and in such circumstances I have concluded the following:

The Early Church Fathers does not define or use tradition in the same sense the Catholic Church does.

The Early Church Fathers did not espouse the Bodily Assumption as fact.
Quote:
Or maybe if you read it yourselves you would become confuse and question your Protestant faith so you feel the need to read it through the lens of others?


Only if Catholics can provide an answer to my questions.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Quote:
Well, does the Hebrew text say "virgin" or "young woman"?

The translation can be used as both.

Quote:
PS -- Are you really that logically challenged?

Are you this delusional?

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:41 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
Well, does the Hebrew text say "virgin" or "young woman"?

The translation can be used as both.


Do you not see how using the erroneous Hebrew texts casts a pall upon the Virgin Birth and is used by the enemies of Christianity for just that purpose?

Quote:
Quote:
PS -- Are you really that logically challenged?

Are you this delusional?

Parker


I was refering you to another post above.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Quote:
Do you not see how using the erroneous Hebrew texts casts a pall upon the Virgin Birth and is used by the enemies of Christianity for just that purpose?

There will always be ambiguity for interpretation with words in any language; however, the context will always win out. This is a rule in hermeneutics that get debated oftentimes because Scholars attempt to ignore the point. Furthermore, you are implicating that Hebrew (as a language) is insufficient for interpretation. Is that what you're pointing out?

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:02 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
Yes, we are familiar with such intellectually dishonest exegesis.

Catholics should the last ones to do the talking.


We usually are and we are usually right (not individually, but the Church). Good of you to recognize that fact.

Quote:
Go read it yourselves. You don't need them. You don't want to do the hard work?
Quote:
Agreed, and in such circumstances I have concluded the following:

The Early Church Fathers does not define or use tradition in the same sense the Catholic Church does.

The Early Church Fathers did not espouse the Bodily Assumption as fact.


They definitely did. Read them for yourself instead of quoting someone who knows little.

Quote:
Or maybe if you read it yourselves you would become confuse and question your Protestant faith so you feel the need to read it through the lens of others?


Only if Catholics can provide an answer to my questions.

Parker[/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:46 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
Do you not see how using the erroneous Hebrew texts casts a pall upon the Virgin Birth and is used by the enemies of Christianity for just that purpose?

There will always be ambiguity for interpretation with words in any language; however, the context will always win out. This is a rule in hermeneutics that get debated oftentimes because Scholars attempt to ignore the point. Furthermore, you are implicating that Hebrew (as a language) is insufficient for interpretation. Is that what you're pointing out?

Parker


Saint Paul to the Bereans: "Christ was born of a Virgin. Look it up for yourselves."

Bereans to Paul: "It don't say 'virgin'. It says 'young woman'. Whaddaya tryin' to pull here?"


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