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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:11 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven.


Yes, I think that's fine and the same can be said with Mary. However (like I've always pointed out), you can't rule these as doctrinally necessary to bind upon all Christians. It's 100% speculation, and the Church knows this.

Parker



And here you would be very wrong. The Church knows no such thing, or she could not proclaim that Mary was assumed into Heaven. If I were you, when arguing a point with a Catholic, it might be nice not to assume you know what the Church does or does not 'know'.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:03 pm 
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pax wrote:
There is absolutely no tradition of Lazarus being assumed into heaven, but there is 2000 years of tradition of Mary being assumed into heaven.


That's an outright lie and you know that! You show me in a catechism dating prior to the Vatican II or the Councils of Trent that mentions her bodily assumption. I bet you can't even cite such a source.

Quote:
Do you really believe that Christ would let His Body wander in error for 2000 years?


Do you believe Christ would let his body endure another 500 years of corruption without bringing up the Reformation?

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:33 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
There is absolutely no tradition of Lazarus being assumed into heaven, but there is 2000 years of tradition of Mary being assumed into heaven.


That's an outright lie and you know that! You show me in a catechism dating prior to the Vatican II or the Councils of Trent that mentions her bodily assumption. I bet you can't even cite such a source.


“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..." Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

"As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him." Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

"It was fitting ...that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory ...should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God." Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life." Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

"St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

"It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God." John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself." Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

"[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men." Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

"God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb." Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

"[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception." Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century).


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:42 pm 
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Quote:
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).


1. Kudos for citing the sources; I couldn't believe you'd take me up on a challenge.

2. A.D. 377 (almost A.D. 400) shows there's a missing 400 years of history that does not make the doctrine 2000 years old. Furthermore, I do not believe all the fathers agreed.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:43 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).


1. Kudos for citing the sources; I couldn't believe you'd take me up on a challenge.

2. A.D. 377 (almost A.D. 400) shows there's a missing 400 years of history that does not make the doctrine 2000 years old. Furthermore, I do not believe all the fathers agreed.

Parker


You're concerned about 400 years of history missing, but not about 1500 years of history missing.

Do you think you could find a writing from a Christian in the 4th century talking about faith alone?


Last edited by pax on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:05 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
2. A.D. 377 (almost A.D. 400) shows there's a missing 400 years of history that does not make the doctrine 2000 years old. Furthermore, I do not believe all the fathers agreed.


Perhaps you could find some Fathers that disagreed with these:

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God. Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger,[O you] alone pure and alone blessed." Sub Tuum Praesidium, Egypt 3rd Century, From Rylands Papyrus,in MCF,79


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:13 pm 
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Here is a verifed miracle involving the Blessed Virgin Mary and Saint James the Greater, Apostle:

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_app ... index.html


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:01 am 
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Quote:
Perhaps you could find some Fathers that disagreed with these:


Epiphanius does since he explicitly states that nobody knows whether she did die or not.

"But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent (on the end of Mary) … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’” (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40)."

Jerome also mentions no bodily assumption.

Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas reject this notion.

Furthermore, Irenaus who you are speaking of does not mention anything explicit that suggests anything of the sort and the other document is not an official doctrinal statement of the Catholic Church (it's just a hymn, which do not count as doctrinal statements, perhaps you should read my conditions as described above).

Nice Try.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:12 am 
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pax wrote:

And they all fell into error. Remember the 2 golden calves of Dan?



Your point? Yes, they fell into error. They ended up crying out for a king to tell them what to do and to lead them rather than seek God themselves. And even with a king, the people still did bad things.

Wierd, huh? He let his chosen people fall into sin.

Quote:

I am not surprised that you cannot differentiate between the two.



I'm asking...what is the difference?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:44 am 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps you could find some Fathers that disagreed with these:


Epiphanius does since he explicitly states that nobody knows whether she did die or not.

"But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent (on the end of Mary) … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’” (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40)."

Jerome also mentions no bodily assumption.

Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas reject this notion.

Furthermore, Irenaus who you are speaking of does not mention anything explicit that suggests anything of the sort and the other document is not an official doctrinal statement of the Catholic Church (it's just a hymn, which do not count as doctrinal statements, perhaps you should read my conditions as described above).

Nice Try.

Parker


Not sure why you would cite a guy who does not know and a guy who says nothing one way or the other. The reason I cited Irenaeus and the hymn was to establish that veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary goes back a long ways and is not medieval invention. Also, you may search far and wide but you will not find any of the early Christians writing against this extreme veneration of the holy Mother of God. That was my intent. Nothing more.

But, two Popes rejecting the bodily assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I would dearly love to see those quotes.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:53 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:

And they all fell into error. Remember the 2 golden calves of Dan?



Your point? Yes, they fell into error. They ended up crying out for a king to tell them what to do and to lead them rather than seek God themselves. And even with a king, the people still did bad things.

Wierd, huh? He let his chosen people fall into sin.


Yes. He passively allowed His people to fall into doctrinal confusion and even the grave sin of apostasy, so that they would cry out to Him for a king, and then He positively willed that David should be their king, for out of David's loins was born the Saviour of the world!

Not weird at all.

So, I wonder why you think He once again allowed His people to fall into the doctrinal confusion -- even apostasy in some denominations! -- which resulted from the Reformation?

Quote:
Quote:

I am not surprised that you cannot differentiate between the two.



I'm asking...what is the difference?


The difference between an apostolic teaching and a folk-tale? You really don't know? And you have a degree in theology?

One is divinely revealed truth and the other is a quaint fib.

There! Succinctly explained to you by a high-school drop-out. You make me glad I didn't waste any more time in school.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:19 am 
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Quote:
Not sure why you would cite a guy who does not know

You cited him earlier in this thread.

Quote:
The reason I cited Irenaeus and the hymn was to establish that veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary goes back a long ways and is not medieval invention.


But these are not to be counted as historical evidences that they were generally accepted among the churches. This is ridiculous.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:42 am 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
Not sure why you would cite a guy who does not know

You cited him earlier in this thread.


Because he gave a good bit of reasoning as to why the Asuumption seems the inevitable conclusion.

Quote:
Quote:
The reason I cited Irenaeus and the hymn was to establish that veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary goes back a long ways and is not medieval invention.


But these are not to be counted as historical evidences that they were generally accepted among the churches. This is ridiculous.


Perhaps instead of just bashing everything I present to you as evidence, you could provide your own evidence as to why such a thing as the Assumption is contrary to the Christian Religion. For instance, you could provide me with a writing from the 2nd or 3rd century that does indeed reflect what was "generally accepted among the churches". Or you could provide a document from roughly the same time period which states that Irenaeus was just talking through his hat. Otherwise, as no Christian writer gainsaid him, and many other Christian writers did in fact agree with him, I have no reason to think that what Irenaeus wrote was not "generally accepted among the churches".


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:48 am 
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pax wrote:

Yes. He passively allowed His people to fall into doctrinal confusion and even the grave sin of apostasy, so that they would cry out to Him for a king, and then He positively willed that David should be their king, for out of David's loins was born the Saviour of the world!

Not weird at all.


And yet, the kingdom of Israel still blasphemed God under future kings....eventually falling into exile. God allowed it to happen.
Quote:
So, I wonder why you think He once again allowed His people to fall into the doctrinal confusion -- even apostasy in some denominations! -- which resulted from the Reformation?


Because when we don't seek him but instead seek a king/leader to tell us what to do we will fall into sin. God wants us to look to him--not some man.
Quote:

One is divinely revealed truth and the other is a quaint fib.

There! Succinctly explained to you by a high-school drop-out. You make me glad I didn't waste any more time in school.

How would you know that the assumption of Mary is one or the other?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:

Yes. He passively allowed His people to fall into doctrinal confusion and even the grave sin of apostasy, so that they would cry out to Him for a king, and then He positively willed that David should be their king, for out of David's loins was born the Saviour of the world!

Not weird at all.


And yet, the kingdom of Israel still blasphemed God under future kings....eventually falling into exile. God allowed it to happen.
Quote:
Quote:
So, I wonder why you think He once again allowed His people to fall into the doctrinal confusion -- even apostasy in some denominations! -- which resulted from the Reformation?


Because when we don't seek him but instead seek a king/leader to tell us what to do we will fall into sin. God wants us to look to him--not some man.


[5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: the Son of David, the King of Israel.

Quote:
Quote:

One is divinely revealed truth and the other is a quaint fib.

There! Succinctly explained to you by a high-school drop-out. You make me glad I didn't waste any more time in school.

How would you know that the assumption of Mary is one or the other?


Apostolic teaching :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Quote:
Because he gave a good bit of reasoning as to why the Asuumption seems the inevitable conclusion.


His later quote clarifies that he says it's not right to make a conclusion about it because the doctrine is mere speculative theology.

Quote:
Perhaps instead of just bashing everything I present to you as evidence, you could provide your own evidence as to why such a thing as the Assumption is contrary to the Christian Religion.


The reason why I don't buy into most Catholic doctrines is because they are derived from speculative theology and they are neither Bible nor historical based.

Quote:
For instance, you could provide me with a writing from the 2nd or 3rd century that does indeed reflect what was "generally accepted among the churches".


That depends on what you're looking for.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:09 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps you could find some Fathers that disagreed with these:


Epiphanius does since he explicitly states that nobody knows whether she did die or not.

"But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent (on the end of Mary) … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’” (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40)."

Parker

Epiphanius' words say nothing that is against the teaching of the Church about Mary's assumption. The Church does not say one way or the other if she died, merely that when the course of her earthly life was finished, she was taken body and soul into heavenly glory. We are free to believe that she died or that she did not die.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:56 pm 
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pax wrote:
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: the Son of David, the King of Israel.

Not sure what your point is.

Quote:


Apostolic teaching :fyi:

So it comes down to "Because the church told me so..."?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: the Son of David, the King of Israel.

Not sure what your point is.


The old kings of Israel were flawed. The new and eternal King of Israel is perfect. He is my King: the King of the New Israel, the Church.

Quote:
Quote:


Apostolic teaching :fyi:

So it comes down to "Because the church told me so..."?


No. It comes down to "because the Apostles told me so."


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Parker, please admit that you have no knowledge of what Pope Gelasius or Pope Hormisdas wrote on the issue of the Assumption. You are either repeating something you've heard or are aware of their opinions and are not telling the truth.


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