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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The bulk of the New Testament was written while Mary was still alive, hence no reference to her death......that's an easy one...


Yeah, but let's try the historical documents. Why produce something that's not biblically based some 500 years later.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:23 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
I did answer your query in the other thread. You have yet to respond to my answer.


Citing a biblical source (2 Thessalonians 2:14) which does NOT define tradition as the Catholic church puts it does not count.

Citing a historical source (Irenaus) who is neither talking about nor providing a definition of tradition as the Catholic Church puts it does NOT count.

Let's try again, smokey!

Parker


I am glad we have cleared up the fact that there is nothing you will accept.

:wave


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:29 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
I am trying to get you to see that you have a double standard, a dichotomy, in your mind. You put a heavy burden of proof on things you don't want to believe, and a much lighter (or non-existent) burden of proof on things you want to believe. Do you not see that employing such methodologies can never lead you to a proper understanding of the Holy Writ?


There is no double standard here; Lazarus's death (1st time) corroborates with Hebrews clearly. However, for any of us to know whatever happened to him if he did die a 2nd time or was bodily assumed into heaven is not for us to know.


So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven. But, where does Scripture say that a man can die twice? It does not. Scripture clearly teaches that men may only die once. Therefore, Lazarus could not have died again, and for you to imply that he might have died again is going against the clear words of Scripture. No Bible only Christian would ever go against the clear words of Scripture like that. I have to wonder where you get the notion you follow the Bible.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:32 pm 
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pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
I am trying to get you to see that you have a double standard, a dichotomy, in your mind. You put a heavy burden of proof on things you don't want to believe, and a much lighter (or non-existent) burden of proof on things you want to believe. Do you not see that employing such methodologies can never lead you to a proper understanding of the Holy Writ?


There is no double standard here; Lazarus's death (1st time) corroborates with Hebrews clearly. However, for any of us to know whatever happened to him if he did die a 2nd time or was bodily assumed into heaven is not for us to know.


So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven. But, where does Scripture say that a man can die twice? It does not. Scripture clearly teaches that men may only die once. Therefore, Lazarus could not have died again, and for you to imply that he might have died again is going against the clear words of Scripture. No Bible only Christian would ever go against the clear words of Scripture like that. I have to wonder where you get the notion you follow the Bible.


Where do you get the idea that a "Bible only Christian" pays no attention to context or common sense?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
I am trying to get you to see that you have a double standard, a dichotomy, in your mind. You put a heavy burden of proof on things you don't want to believe, and a much lighter (or non-existent) burden of proof on things you want to believe. Do you not see that employing such methodologies can never lead you to a proper understanding of the Holy Writ?


There is no double standard here; Lazarus's death (1st time) corroborates with Hebrews clearly. However, for any of us to know whatever happened to him if he did die a 2nd time or was bodily assumed into heaven is not for us to know.


So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven. But, where does Scripture say that a man can die twice? It does not. Scripture clearly teaches that men may only die once. Therefore, Lazarus could not have died again, and for you to imply that he might have died again is going against the clear words of Scripture. No Bible only Christian would ever go against the clear words of Scripture like that. I have to wonder where you get the notion you follow the Bible.


Where do you get the idea that a "Bible only Christian" pays no attention to context or common sense?


If your common sense is contrary to the Scriptures then the Scriptures prevail.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:38 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
I am trying to get you to see that you have a double standard, a dichotomy, in your mind. You put a heavy burden of proof on things you don't want to believe, and a much lighter (or non-existent) burden of proof on things you want to believe. Do you not see that employing such methodologies can never lead you to a proper understanding of the Holy Writ?


There is no double standard here; Lazarus's death (1st time) corroborates with Hebrews clearly. However, for any of us to know whatever happened to him if he did die a 2nd time or was bodily assumed into heaven is not for us to know.


So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven. But, where does Scripture say that a man can die twice? It does not. Scripture clearly teaches that men may only die once. Therefore, Lazarus could not have died again, and for you to imply that he might have died again is going against the clear words of Scripture. No Bible only Christian would ever go against the clear words of Scripture like that. I have to wonder where you get the notion you follow the Bible.


Where do you get the idea that a "Bible only Christian" pays no attention to context or common sense?


If your common sense is contrary to the Scriptures then the Scriptures prevail.


I would agree, for the most part. But we need to understand the context in which it was written.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
If your common sense is contrary to the Scriptures then the Scriptures prevail.


I would agree, for the most part. But we need to understand the context in which it was written.


So, what is the proper understanding of the verse in context?

And, what do you do if someone challenges your exegesis?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:28 pm 
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pax wrote:

So, what is the proper understanding of the verse in context?


What is the context of this verse? Do you believe the writer of Hebrews was attempting to make an absolute statement that everyone dies only once? Or that he will die? I believe it's a common understanding that all men die. We see that everywhere in life, and throughout scripture--men die and face judgment. Did Lazarus face judgment the first time? The Gospel doesn't record it. It would be reasonable to suggest that he will have to face judgment at some point--or Christ will do it for him.
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And, what do you do if someone challenges your exegesis?

I talk about it and try to figure out if I need to change my understanding of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
What is the context of this verse? Do you believe the writer of Hebrews was attempting to make an absolute statement that everyone dies only once? Or that he will die? I believe it's a common understanding that all men die.


Did Enoch die? Did Elijah die?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:37 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
What is the context of this verse? Do you believe the writer of Hebrews was attempting to make an absolute statement that everyone dies only once? Or that he will die? I believe it's a common understanding that all men die.


Did Enoch die? Did Elijah die?


Scripture does not record their deaths. Traditional rabbinical understanding of it would suggest that they did not. I would prefer not to speculate on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
What is the context of this verse? Do you believe the writer of Hebrews was attempting to make an absolute statement that everyone dies only once? Or that he will die? I believe it's a common understanding that all men die.


Did Enoch die? Did Elijah die?


Scripture does not record their deaths.


If you believe that Scripture teaches us that all men die, then Scripture does indeed record their deaths. Look, you can't have it both ways. When Scripture says "all have sinned" you allow no exceptions. Now you tell me that Scripture says "all men die" and you want to make possible room for an exception or two. You constantly switch hermaneutics in mid-stream. You apply one hermaneutic to things you don;t want to believe, and you apply another hermaneutic to things you do want to believe. And what do you end up believing? Only your man-made Protestant traditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:00 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
What is the context of this verse? Do you believe the writer of Hebrews was attempting to make an absolute statement that everyone dies only once? Or that he will die? I believe it's a common understanding that all men die.


Did Enoch die? Did Elijah die?


Scripture does not record their deaths.


If you believe that Scripture teaches us that all men die, then Scripture does indeed record their deaths.



ok..I'll go with that. I have no problem with it.
Quote:
Look, you can't have it both ways. When Scripture says "all have sinned" you allow no exceptions.


It's because we all have sinned. Because we are all sinners born of Adam's race.
Quote:

Now you tell me that Scripture says "all men die" and you want to make possible room for an exception or two. You constantly switch hermaneutics in mid-stream. You apply one hermaneutic to things you don;t want to believe, and you apply another hermaneutic to things you do want to believe. And what do you end up believing? Only your man-made Protestant traditions.


It's all about the context.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
It's all about the context.



Bollucks!

It is all about what you want and don't want to believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:15 pm 
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pax wrote:
I am glad we have cleared up the fact that there is nothing you will accept.


Pax,

Don't be a chicken; I asked a direct question and you did not provide sufficient evidence fair and square.

Parker

:fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:18 pm 
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pax wrote:
So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven.


Yes, I think that's fine and the same can be said with Mary. However (like I've always pointed out), you can't rule these as doctrinally necessary to bind upon all Christians. It's 100% speculation, and the Church knows this.

Parker


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:18 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
It's all about the context.



Bollucks!

It is all about what you want and don't want to believe.

No...it's really about the context.

You going to answer haparker?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:34 pm 
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haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven.


Yes, I think that's fine and the same can be said with Mary. However (like I've always pointed out), you can't rule these as doctrinally necessary to bind upon all Christians. It's 100% speculation, and the Church knows this.

Parker


There is absolutely no tradition of Lazarus being assumed into heaven, but there is 2000 years of tradition of Mary being assumed into heaven.

Do you really believe that Christ would let His Body wander in error for 2000 years?

We do not. Hence, a tradition held by all Christians for so long a time can be seen as nothing other than an apostolic teaching.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:40 pm 
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pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven.


Yes, I think that's fine and the same can be said with Mary. However (like I've always pointed out), you can't rule these as doctrinally necessary to bind upon all Christians. It's 100% speculation, and the Church knows this.

Parker


There is absolutely no tradition of Lazarus being assumed into heaven, but there is 2000 years of tradition of Mary being assumed into heaven.

Do you really believe that Christ would let His Body wander in error for 2000 years?


He let the entire nation of Israel live without a king for some time prior to Saul. Each man did what was right in his own eyes. Why must you have a central king/leader to tell you what to believe?
Quote:

We do not. Hence, a tradition held by all Christians for so long a time can be seen as nothing other than an apostolic teaching.

So a folk tale is considered an apostolic tradition?


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:43 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven.


Yes, I think that's fine and the same can be said with Mary. However (like I've always pointed out), you can't rule these as doctrinally necessary to bind upon all Christians. It's 100% speculation, and the Church knows this.

Parker


There is absolutely no tradition of Lazarus being assumed into heaven, but there is 2000 years of tradition of Mary being assumed into heaven.

Do you really believe that Christ would let His Body wander in error for 2000 years?


He let the entire nation of Israel live without a king for some time prior to Saul. Each man did what was right in his own eyes. Why must you have a central king/leader to tell you what to believe?


And they all fell into error. Remember the 2 golden calves of Dan?

Quote:
Quote:

We do not. Hence, a tradition held by all Christians for so long a time can be seen as nothing other than an apostolic teaching.

So a folk tale is considered an apostolic tradition?


I am not surprised that you cannot differentiate between the two.


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 Post subject: Re: Where Do Catholics Get The Notion They Follow The Bible?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
haparker321 wrote:
pax wrote:
So, you do hold open the possibility that Lazarus was assumed into heaven.


Yes, I think that's fine and the same can be said with Mary. However (like I've always pointed out), you can't rule these as doctrinally necessary to bind upon all Christians. It's 100% speculation, and the Church knows this.

Parker


There is absolutely no tradition of Lazarus being assumed into heaven, but there is 2000 years of tradition of Mary being assumed into heaven.

Do you really believe that Christ would let His Body wander in error for 2000 years?


He let the entire nation of Israel live without a king for some time prior to Saul. Each man did what was right in his own eyes. Why must you have a central king/leader to tell you what to believe?

It's not about what you or I think that "must" be, its about what Christ did.

Jesus called Simon "the Rock upon which I will build My Church."

Why would Jesus call Simon by a name that was reserved for God, what is the significance of it, and what does that say about Peter's new mission?

And Jesus said that, "I will be with you always, unto the close of the age."

Either Jesus knew that His Church would go into error, knew it, and refused to protect it(which would make Him a liar), or He said it while not knowing that His Church would fall into error(in which He was deceived), or that He was powerless to keep the promises that he made; any of these options would suggest that Jesus was not divine and therefore your faith in Him is utterly useless.

Calvinist wrote:
Quote:
We do not. Hence, a tradition held by all Christians for so long a time can be seen as nothing other than an apostolic teaching.

So a folk tale is considered an apostolic tradition?


Mary's assumption is no less factual than that "folk tale" known as the Exodus is considered historical fact. There is just as much traditional attestation for one as to the other. So to reject one then, that is if you are logically consistent, means that you must reject the other.


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