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 Post subject: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:02 am 
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Honeymoon King
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Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/B8-unam.asp

Does he mean: absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature that he be subject to the Roman Pontiff?

Or does he mean that salvation will not be realized until every human creature is indeed subject to the Roman Pontiff?


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:21 am 
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Exact Latin words in the bull Unam Sanctam are:

Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis.

For the complete Latin version, click:

http://www.americancatholictruthsociety ... anctum.htm

The bull of Boniface VIII was against King Philip IV of France, called Philip the Fair (Philippe le Bel).


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:04 am 
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That doesn't mean that every non-Catholic is damned.

Check the following debate:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/debate9.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:44 am 
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lbt wrote:
The bull of Boniface VIII was against King Philip IV of France, called Philip the Fair (Philippe le Bel).


That really is irrelevant. His words are "every human creature" not "every French King" :fyi:


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:46 am 
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lbt wrote:
That doesn't mean that every non-Catholic is damned.


Yes, it does. But that doctrine is more expressly defined by the Council of Florence.


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:02 am 
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Just throwing a thought out here, please don't take it as direct criticism. But to me, saying that every human being who is not subject to the Roman Pontiff is damned is completely discounting the Mercy of Christ. Just my humble opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:05 am 
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pax wrote:
lbt wrote:
That doesn't mean that every non-Catholic is damned.


Yes, it does. But that doctrine is more expressly defined by the Council of Florence.


Is this a doctrine that is held by the Catholic Church today?
I was under the impression that some non-Catholics are provided salvation.


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:22 pm 
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If anyone gains salvation it is thru the Catholic Church. How that may happen for non-Catholics we aren't sure.

SV

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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:00 pm 
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St Veronica wrote:
If anyone gains salvation it is thru the Catholic Church. How that may happen for non-Catholics we aren't sure.


right. that is my understanding also.


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:05 pm 
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pax is an ideologue on this question. That is, he sees the entirety of the Faith through the lens of a single idea, that there is no salvation outside the Church, going so far as to say that every doctrine of the Church is based on the necessity of being subject to the pope for salvation. Silly me, I would have thought the Incarnation would be more foundational...anyhow.

I would take much of what he says with a grain of salt. Unam sanctam was written in a society that was virtually all Catholic (excepting certain semi-autonomous Jewish communities). Certainly in an era where the claims of the Church were not only known by all, but part of the air you breathed. In such a context he is not addressing those who might err in good faith, through ignorance, he is precisely addressing a wayward Catholic monarch. That isn't to say there is no universal import of the teaching. But it should influence how it is read.

The dogmatic definition that pax is harping on is take less strictly by the very man who likely wrote it (Giles of Rome) than pax. It is understood to be a declaration of papal primacy, the headship of the pope of the Church and thus the claim that to be in schism with the pope is to be out of the Church. What is not on the radar screen are those who say have never heard of the Church. Giles, like St. Thomas, answers that these can be saved as God is prepared to give grace to anyone who does what he can according to the natural law. They are joined through grace. I suppose you could say they are "virtually subject"


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 Post subject: Re: Subject to the Roman Pontiff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:14 pm 
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I could listen to Solivagus in Mundi talk all day. :)


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