Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 7   [ 136 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 6067
Location: Illinois
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
It is all clear now.
CLEAR. I am sure that was sarcasm because the only thing clear is that Parker will disagree with anything Catholic. All the rest of his "reasoning" appear internally inconsistent.

But that is to be expected. Heresy is sin. Sin darkens the intellect. His mind is in darkness. One mistake we often make is believing we can "reason" the faithless to faith. He does not need our Apologetic. He needs to be Evangelized. The two are often confused one with the other.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:41 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 8368
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
metal1633 wrote:
...All the rest of his "reasoning" appear internally inconsistent. ...
Externally too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:56 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 220
Religion: Reformed
Quote:
I'm not strong on bibliology, or formal logic, but it seems that Parker just said that (1)"we always accepted sacred tradition", but only as "complementary to the scriptures". Thus Sacred Tradition exists.

Exactly, nothing wrong in that.

Quote:
He then proceeds to tell us how Catholics understand tradition and then states that our understanding is incorrect -- that we wish tradition to mean something that it does not.
He acknowledges that both Scripture and the Fathers cite tradition, but that neither defines tradition in the Catholic sense. He relies upon his omniscience in this, I suppose -- since he does not explicate on the specific content of either Scripture or the Fathers to support his assertion.

The reason I say that Catholics have a wrong view on tradition is because there are no concise definitions that either the Scripture or the Patristic Fathers use that closely resembles anything to the views that Catholics use when they talk about tradition. If you are going to claim that your views are right, I think you are going to have to prove that position (#3) as I originally posted has a legitimate evidence that can be found in both Scripture and the Fathers (specifically, prior to the Nicean Council). So far, Catholics have only used the same sources over and over again to show the existence of the terminology being used without really coming up with the evidences to support how the Church defines tradition. In this department, the burden of proof sits with the Catholic Church to support the definition.

Quote:
Honestly, without sarcasm, isn't Parker just parroting the opinions of others without providing any evidence from the Scripture he will not cite and without addressing the history he casually dismisses?

I am using other individuals for 'scholastic' purposes (no sarcasm) because they have done the research and can further discuss the topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:00 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 220
Religion: Reformed
Quote:
I did read The Shape of Sola Scriptura several years ago, which advocates this Tradition 0-3 schema you've mentioned. I'm a bit rusty on it as it has been 3 years or more since I read it. I remember thinking it was an okay read and it did make some careful distinctions. It was a decent defense of "classical" Sola Scriptura and it does show that a Tradition 1 viewpoint is in many ways superior to Tradition 0. That being said there were a few things that I found weak in his approach (not that I am God's gift to apologetics or anything, this is just how I saw it)...

I'm glad you do, and that is what makes me different. :mrgreen:

Quote:
That was the impression the book left on me at least. But I'm not sure I want to get drawn into a long discussion that is "stressing on something I am not interested in answering."


And it looks like the heat of the battle has turned into a stalemate.

Parker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:29 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 6067
Location: Illinois
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
I think you are going to have to prove that position (#3) as I originally posted has a legitimate evidence that can be found in both Scripture and the Fathers
#3 is not the Catholic definition of Sacred Tradition.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:43 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:30 am
Posts: 5921
Location: Double-Decker Couch
Religion: Lead, Kindly Light
haparker321 wrote:
bumble wrote:
I did read The Shape of Sola Scriptura several years ago, which advocates this Tradition 0-3 schema you've mentioned... It was a decent defense of "classical" Sola Scriptura [but] there were a few things that I found weak in his approach...
I'm glad you do, and that is what makes me different.

Ummmm... seriously, what in the heck are you trying to communicate?

What are you glad I "do?" Are you glad I saw a few weaknesses in his approach? Are you glad I read the book?

And what makes you different? Are you different because you also see weaknesses? Because you are glad I read the book? Because it means you can debate? Because you think you have an approach that has no weaknesses?

No offense, but your response makes no sense. It's one thing to have the super-speedy Shadow the Hedgehog as your avatar if you can really think that fast on your feet, but I think you need to slow down and put a bit more thought into your responses because what you posted is unintelligible... and this is not the first time I've had this thought regarding your posts. Believe me, I'm not God's gift to clear communication, but... c'mon man... you're going to have a tough time selling a novel if you can't communicate clearly in something as short as a message board post.

haparker321 wrote:
bumble wrote:
That was the impression the book left on me at least. But I'm not sure I want to get drawn into a long discussion that is "stressing on something I am not interested in answering."
And it looks like the heat of the battle has turned into a stalemate.

Yeah, uh... one unclear response of "I'm glad you do, and that is what makes me different" doesn't exactly qualify as the "heat of battle." And in case you suffer from short-term memory loss (I'm pretty sure I do) I was quoting you when I said "stressing on something I am not interested in answering." Remember that other topic you didn't feel like answering? :?


Last edited by bumble on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:08 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:23 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 8368
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Does anybody else feel that they are in a Monty Python sketch?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:40 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68806
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
No.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:42 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 71996
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Yes you do.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:56 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68806
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
No, I don't.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:02 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 8368
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Prove it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:03 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68806
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
You're off-script. :fyi:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:04 pm 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 8368
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
No, I'm not. You are.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:53 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
metal1633 wrote:
And the Jews of the Diaspora? No two Septuagint codices contain the same books and none of the ones we know about existed at the time of Paul, they are all 4th century or later Christian documents.


The sources I have cited beg to differ. They each claim there was an extant Alexandrian Canon from at least 2 centuries before Christ which was used pretty well universally by the Jews of the Diaspora. Perhaps you could cite your sources for your statement above?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:25 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 220
Religion: Reformed
metal1633 wrote:
#3 is not the Catholic definition of Sacred Tradition.

It's not? Please, tell me how it's not (don't forget to use some sources).

Parker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:30 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 9:58 pm
Posts: 220
Religion: Reformed
Quote:
What are you glad I "do?" Are you glad I saw a few weaknesses in his approach? Are you glad I read the book?

It's more about, I'm glad you read the book and that you understand the gist of his position (seeing the differences between the Reformed Classical Sola Scriptura vs. The Contemporary [baseless] assertion of it). Sometimes I do think fast, but it's not because I'm trying to be unclear; usually I go back and clarify what I say.

Parker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:45 am 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
haparker321 wrote:
metal1633 wrote:
#3 is not the Catholic definition of Sacred Tradition.

It's not? Please, tell me how it's not (don't forget to use some sources).

Parker


Quote:
... this sacred Office of Teacher in matters of faith and morals ... has been entrusted by Christ Our Lord [with] the whole deposit of faith - Sacred Scripture and divine Tradition - to be preserved, guarded and interpreted ...


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_ ... is_en.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:51 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 68806
Location: 1.56381501 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Dei Verbum wrote:
7. In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the supreme God is brought to completion (see Cor. 1:20; 3:13; 4:6), commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is the source of all saving truth and moral teaching, (1) and to impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing. (2)

But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handing over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place."(3) This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face to face (see 1 John 3:2).

8. And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3) (4) Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church, in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes.

This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.

The words of the holy fathers witness to the presence of this living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life of the believing and praying Church. Through the same tradition the Church's full canon of the sacred books is known, and the sacred writings themselves are more profoundly understood and unceasingly made active in her; and thus God, who spoke of old, uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto all truth those who believe and makes the word of Christ dwell abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).

9. Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.(6)

10. Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 2, 42, Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort. (7)

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:52 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:30 am
Posts: 5921
Location: Double-Decker Couch
Religion: Lead, Kindly Light
Greg wrote:
baptist bumble wrote:
... It seemed to me... claiming... confused the warped... dismissed most arguments... theoretical distinction... stawmen and then ignoring... not strictly speaking...

bb,
Would it be a fair statement to say: You either have all the confused muddle of quibbling, hedging and hairsplitting you noted above; or you have the 2,000 year tradition of the Church? (Now... this is not to say that everything in Catholic tradition is crystal clear, but al least you know the limits of the pool you are swiming in.)

I like what you did with my quote, I really do. I see that the uncertainty and inexactitude of those terms I used really stuck out to you; very perceptive as usual my friend. :wink:

Are you asking me what I honestly think? As you've noticed through the years my posts are often filed with the sort of muddling, quibbling, hedging and hairsplitting you mentioned; mostly because I am unsure of what I think. I don't normally answer what I really, truly think, but I will be happy to answer so long as I am given to two graces,
1) please don't ask me to back up either my statements or my doubts, not because I do not want to but because I can't (I know my limits)
2) please do not "call me to the carpet" for not living up to my thoughts yet. I'll get there.

As to the first part,
Quote:
Would it be a fair statement to say: You either have all the confused muddle of quibbling, hedging and hairsplitting you noted above;

In all honesty... yes. Yes I think that. I'm still a bit timid to admit it, but yes that is what I think. I think there are plenty of clear things in Scripture but as I work through the issues myself (I just finished compiling every blasted thing I could find on baptism) I am forced to admit that the Scriptures are multi-vocal, complex, rich in unspoken context and tradition. Therefore it most always does come down to quibbling, hedging, ignoring, muddling, equivocating and hairsplitting at some point.

That being said, I don't assume that anyone who holds a contradictory view does so in bad faith. I did.

As to the second part...
Quote:
or you have the 2,000 year tradition of the Church? (Now... this is not to say that everything in Catholic tradition is crystal clear, but al least you know the limits of the pool you are swiming in.)


In all honesty... I'm not sure.

It is more than possible, it is quite plausible. I'm not confident enough in my thoughts to say yes. Part of my hesitancy to say yes is because (as you noted) everything in Catholic tradition is not crystal clear. There is clarity there and it does bring some clarity to Scripture (and vice-versa I think), but I personally do not know the limits of the pool. I don't fully understand the bounds of that tradition and therefore it is hard for me to say I fully trust, IYKWIM.

Does my answer satisfy what you wanted to know?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parker -- You and Me and Sola Scriptura
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:36 pm 
Online
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:30 am
Posts: 4625
Location: The carrefour of ignorance is bliss & knowledge is power.
Religion: The One with All the Marks.
You have striven with God and with men, but you have not yet prevailed.

Thanks for the measured and frank answer, bb.

(Sentence removed.)

*************
PS. By "the limits of the pool" I meant Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church.

(CCC 95. "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.")


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 7   [ 136 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: