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 Post subject: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:09 am 
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According to Gospel, "A good tree cannot produce evil fruit, and neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit." (Matthew 7:18)

If Roman Catholic Church is a good tree, then why does she produce so many evil fruits? An interview with Robert Jackline, a former Roman Catholic priest who converted to Orthodoxy:

    Kevin: Robert Jackline, ex-Roman Catholic priest, what was it that prompted you? Was it a specific crisis, event, or was it just an accumulation? What was it?

    Robert: It was an accumulation, but there was an event, also, and that event was in 2000, and 2002, when all of the sexual scandals came out. <…> In 2002 when it exploded in Boston, if you remember, with Cardinal Law, I was absolutely devastated, I could not believe what I was hearing. I think what even made me more angry, was the fact that the bishops of this country, and of the world, but my knowledge is, of course, of this country, were moving these men around from parish to parish, school to school, and allowing them to continue, and did nothing about it. They hid it, and it completely devastated me. I just could not continue anymore.

    That is another reason why I looked at Orthodoxy, and who says it is not in Orthodoxy, too? But this was an epidemic, and it was a complete failure of the bishops in this country to lead morally. In my estimation, the Catholic Church in this country, and the Catholic bishops in this country, lost all moral authority. (From Roman Catholic Priest To Eastern Orthodox Christian // October 25, 2008. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/il ... man_cath#h[] )


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:30 am 
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The Orthodox Church also has some bad priests.

A good example is Rasputin.

Having been in Russia, I can say both Catholic Church and Orthodox Church have good and bad priests.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:08 am 
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I can't believe anyone can claim with a straight face that Orthodoxy does not have its share of bad fruit.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:11 am 
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From your own quotation, Vadim: "who says it is not in Orthodoxy, too?"


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:14 am 
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Does being a KGB stool pigeon count as good fruit?


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:53 am 
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The Russian Orthodox Church has always been a pawn of the Russian government, it is a pawn of Vladimir Putin today, and it was a pawn of the Soviets under Communism. Indeed, the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church collaborated with the Communists and assisted the Communists in persecuting Russian Catholics, Protestants, and Jews, and looked the other way at atrocities committed against their own fellow Russian Orthodox. If that's not 'evil fruit' I don't know what is.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:56 am 
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If you think members of the Orthodox hierarchy were not - over many years - covering up the behavior of these people and many other Orthodox clergy, you are either naive or obtuse:

- Father George Passias, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (2015)
- Bishop Matthias (Moriak) of Chicago, Orthodox Church of America (2013)
- Bishop Vasilije Kacavenda, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbian Orthodox Church (2013)
- Metropolitan Paisios of Tyana, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (2012)
- Archpriest Michael Abdelahad, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America (2010)

And the list goes on...

A resource for survivors of abuse in the Orthodox Churches: http://www.pokrov.org/


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:03 pm 
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So, in summary: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:21 pm 
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:wave

Just thought I'd say hi.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 1:59 pm 
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Obi-Wan,

That was the exact phrase I thought of as I was typing.

***************

Concerning this:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Does being a KGB stool pigeon count as good fruit?

See this...

Stalin's Hollow Cross: The Russian Orthodox Church as a Soviet Political Tool by Jordan Hupka (in Constellations Volume 2, No. 2, Winter 2011)

Abstract

It has been said that the Second World War saved the Russian Orthodox Church from extermination. Ever since the Revolution of 1917, the religious peoples of Russia were constantly persecuted by Soviet ideologists and politicians. Prior to Operation Barbarossa, in 1941, it seemed that the days of the Russian Orthodox Church, the largest religious institution in the Soviet Union, were numbered. However, the unique climate of the Second World War forced the Soviet government to end its war against the church. The Kremlin soon saw the Church as a useful tool to help aid in the reoccupation of Eastern Europe.

And see Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox in Czechoslovakia by Andrew Sorokowski

Extract.

"The communist take-over in February 1948 did not bode well for the Catholic Church in Czechoslovakia... The subjugation of the church began in 1949 with a government demand for an oath of allegiance... Two laws of 14 October 1949 concerning the church gave the government control over the content of sermons, and the right to censor pastoral letters and even Papal encyclicals. A Bureau of Church Affairs was set up. During Easter week 1950, a trial of superiors of orders and congregations was held, and many were confined in concentration camps and monastery-prisons. On 13 April 1950 all monasteries and convents were ordered to be closed... The GreekCatholic Cathedral of Presov was forcibly seized after Bishop Goidych refused to surrender the keys..."

"While the Greek-Catholic Church was suffering persecution, the Orthodox Church enjoyed the support of the Moscow Patriarchate, the Soviet government..."


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 2:28 pm 
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lbt wrote:
The Orthodox Church also has some bad priests.

A good example is Rasputin.

Rasputin was not a priest. Priests sin sometimes, but sins can be of different gravity. Robert Jackline is talking about extremely grave sins.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
From your own quotation, Vadim: "who says it is not in Orthodoxy, too?"

Fr. Kenobi, such grave sins are extremely rare, and even if they occur, then severe punishment comes. Archimandrite Tikhon (Shevkunov) (from Russian Orthodox Church), when asked about such sins, said that he had heard about two such stories told to him by seminarians. In both cases he told to the Patriarch, and then a severe punishment took place. So sinners were not covered by higher hierarchs, and this is not an epidemy in the Orthodox Catholic Church.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:00 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Does being a KGB stool pigeon count as good fruit?

Who was a KGB stool pigeon?


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:08 pm 
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TreeBeard wrote:
If you think members of the Orthodox hierarchy were not - over many years - covering up

In Orthodoxy, it is impossible to cover sinners, because the highest judge is Council of bishops, not a Patriarch. So if even it was so that one of bishops wanted to cover something, then other bishops would interfere and would forbid him to do so.


Last edited by Vadim on Sun May 29, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:10 pm 
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Vadim wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Does being a KGB stool pigeon count as good fruit?

Who was a KGB stool pigeon?


Patriarch Alexei II of Moscow for one.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:20 pm 
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Vadim wrote:
In Orthodoxy, it is impossible to cover sinners, because the highest judge is Council of bishops, not a Patriarch. So if even it was so that one of bishops wanted to cover something, then other bishops would interfere and would forbid him to do so.

And how many centuries would that take?

No "council of bishops" exposed the people I mentioned or the people listed on pokrov.org. These criminals were uncovered by laity who had finally had enough of Orthodox hierarchy who refused to take action. If Orthodox Bishops did anything at all to bring these people to justice it was only after months (years?) of pressure from the laity.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Vadim, if you're not going to be honest about facts (and you quite evidently don't intend to be), there's no point in trying to persuade anyone. We know better.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Maybe not the best dialogue. We've both been around for centuries, just accept the fact we both have sins that run pretty deep, rather than argue over which has less/ more sexual predators.


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 Post subject: Re: A good tree cannot produce evil fruit
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Vadim appears to be arguing that the Orthodox have none, or at least that there has never been a coverup.


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