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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:44 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Sola Scriptura, like the Scriptures themselves, recognizes that God has gifted the church with teachers and pastors. It recognizes that the church has progressed and reached consensus on critical issues in and through the ancient ecumenical creeds. It affirms with vigor that we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. But it also affirms that even these giants have feet of clay. And there is where the Bible does in the end teach sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a biblical doctrine not because the Bible says so. That would be a tautology- the kind of argument we find in that collection of lies the Book of Mormon. Instead the Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God. It has been attested, authenticated, by God Himself. Miracles serve as the divine imprimatur, the proof that this is a message of God. This is how Nicodemus reasoned when he said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him” (John 3:2). This is also how Jesus Himself reasoned when He first forgave the sins of the paralytic lowered through the roof. In response to the unspoken charge that He had blasphemed, Jesus told the man, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house” (Matthew 9:1-8).
...R.C. Sproul Jr.

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/sola-scriptura-bible/


And quite frankly what miracles has Sproul done in order to establish himself as an authority in order to proclaim what criteria is necessary to establish someone's authority?

Who has Sproul "raised from the dead"?

Where is his "divine imprimatur"?

I'm sorry Etcum but this argument, no matter if you want to split hairs between "solo" and "sola" or not, they're both arguments built on circular reasoning.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:49 am 
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Sola Scriptura is a biblical doctrine not because the Bible says so.
Sproul can use a thousand words if he wants, but in the end this statement will always turn out to contain internal contradictions.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:18 pm 
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If you conclude that the quote above describing Sproul's decision to follow Jesus example in establishing inerrancy creates an internal contradiction then so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Alabama12 wrote:

Quote:
Jesus obeyed the Word of God, not man. He was subject to it. If some leaders” view of inspiration were true, Jesus was subject to an errant, rather casually thrown-together “Word of Man.” Jesus would have been subject, then, to the will of man, not the will of God.


"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.…" Matt 23:2

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
NIV version

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:"
KJV version

It seems that Matt 23:2 contradicts your point above. Jesus subjected himself to the interpretation of the OT scriptures given by those "seated on the seat of Moses."


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Alabama12 wrote:

Quote:
Jesus obeyed the Word of God, not man. He was subject to it. If some leaders” view of inspiration were true, Jesus was subject to an errant, rather casually thrown-together “Word of Man.” Jesus would have been subject, then, to the will of man, not the will of God.


"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.…" Matt 23:2

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
NIV version

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:"
KJV version

It seems that Matt 23:2 contradicts your point above. Jesus subjected himself to the interpretation of the OT scriptures given by those "seated on the seat of Moses."


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:37 pm 
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cjg wrote:
Alabama12 wrote:

Quote:
Jesus obeyed the Word of God, not man. He was subject to it. If some leaders” view of inspiration were true, Jesus was subject to an errant, rather casually thrown-together “Word of Man.” Jesus would have been subject, then, to the will of man, not the will of God.


"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.…" Matt 23:2

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
NIV version

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:"
KJV version

It seems that Matt 23:2 contradicts your point above. Jesus subjected himself to the interpretation of the OT scriptures given by those "seated on the seat of Moses."


Jesus described what he modeled under the OT in Matt 10:17-27 If ... as you state above ... this is what those who sat in Moses seat required... But did not do.
In the New Testament Paul gave the new instruction ... encouraging personal responsibility... to active diligent spiritual discernment and not wrote passive acquiescence : Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:38 pm 
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A Ring Bearer wrote:


I'm sorry Etcum but this argument, no matter if you want to split hairs between "solo" and "sola" or not, they're both arguments built on circular reasoning.


Your view of circular reasoning and my view are very different.

RC Sproul:
"The Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God. It has been attested, authenticated, by God Himself. Miracles serve as the divine imprimatur, the proof that this is a message of God. This is how Nicodemus reasoned when he said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him” (John 3:2). This is also how Jesus Himself reasoned when He first forgave the sins of the paralytic lowered through the roof. In response to the unspoken charge that He had blasphemed, Jesus told the man, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house” (Matthew 9:1-8). "

__________

The Catholic Church is infallible based on the fact that the Catholic Church says it is infallible.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:43 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
A Ring Bearer wrote:


I'm sorry Etcum but this argument, no matter if you want to split hairs between "solo" and "sola" or not, they're both arguments built on circular reasoning.


Your view of circular reasoning and my view are very different.

RC Sproul:
"The Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God. It has been attested, authenticated, by God Himself. Miracles serve as the divine imprimatur, the proof that this is a message of God. This is how Nicodemus reasoned when he said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him” (John 3:2). This is also how Jesus Himself reasoned when He first forgave the sins of the paralytic lowered through the roof. In response to the unspoken charge that He had blasphemed, Jesus told the man, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house” (Matthew 9:1-8). "


And as I said, and which you left out, I don't see anything from Scripture, nor from any verifiable evidence, that R.C. Sproul ever raised anyone from the dead to authenticate or provide a "divine imprimatur" that His opinion of criteria regarding "sola" scriptura is in fact valid or authenticated by God.

His argument is self-refuting. He demands that his opinion( "x" )is the criteria for determining "Scripture" but provides no evidence of "x" to support his opinion.

He has no divine mandate to dictate what constitutes a divine mandate.

It's like a skeptic who tries to assert that it's absolutely true that "nothing is true".


Etcum wrote:
Catholicism:
The Catholic Church is infallible based on the fact that the Catholic Church says it is infallible.



1 Timothy 3:[14] I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The Church possesses Apostolic Succession. R.C. Sproul does not.

The Church, throughout her 2000 year history, has had a single criteria for determining the truth and separating truth from falsehoods and heresies: is "x" what we received from the Apostles, either "by word of mouth or by letter?"(2 Thes 2:15)

IOW, is this what the Apostles handed on (i.e. "traditio", tradition) to the Church?

At the council of Jerusalem they did not use Scripture to come to their decision about circumcision because their decision was diametrically opposed to "Scripture" as they had it (the Old Testament). Thus they established a new order negating the previous one and insisted that this they did with the authority of the Holy Spirit. So Scripture was not the "final word" in the dispute; it was the Church, which had the authority of Christ, who decided what was true, and that what they decided was "the word of God."

The Apostles handed on this "Word of God", this Sacred Tradition, to their successors in the Church.

In every subsequent controversy surely the "Scriptures"(although not yet a certified and codified canon) were used in examining a question, but they were never the "final word" in making a judgment. It was never "Scripture says 'x' and that's that," it was always "We are the Church of Christ; this is what we received from the Apostles. What you assert is not. Therefore what you assert is wrong."

The "final word" was always from the Church.

The Church determined what Scripture was, what books of the Bible would constitute "Scripture", not based upon Scripture, but based upon that very same principle criteria: what did we receive from the Apostles?

The fact is that the Apostles never used, nor never taught "solo-scriptura" or "sola-scriptura". We know this because no Church council, from Jerusalem to Nicea to Chaldea, etc., ever said that they received either "sola-scriptura" or "solo-scriptura" from the Apostles.

Nor, by yours and Sproul's admission, will you find it in the Bible.

You'll of course ignore history and prefer your own beliefs, as is your wont.

But the argument is self-defeating. That much is certain.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:00 am 
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Ec2 wrote:

Quote:
The Catholic Church is infallible based on the fact that the Catholic Church says it is infallible.


Actually Etcum the infallibility of the Catholic church is explicitly implied when Jesus promised he would guide her unto all truth. John 16:13. So in fact the argument is a linear one.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:34 am 
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A Ring Bearer wrote:

And as I said, and which you left out, I don't see anything from Scripture, nor from any verifiable evidence, that R.C. Sproul ever raised anyone from the dead to authenticate or provide a "divine imprimatur" that His opinion of criteria regarding "sola" scriptura is in fact valid or authenticated by God.

His argument is self-refuting. He demands that his opinion( "x" )is the criteria for determining "Scripture" but provides no evidence of "x" to support his opinion.

He has no divine mandate to dictate what constitutes a divine mandate.

It's like a skeptic who tries to assert that it's absolutely true that "nothing is true".



Sproul is saying that the burden of proof is the standard that Jesus set. He is stating that The Bible meets that standard and that nothing else does.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:17 am 
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But where does the Bible say that the standard of proof is the standard that Jesus set? Nowhere. He smuggled that non-sola-scriptura assumption in. Pull it out and the whole edifice of his argument shatters.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:56 pm 
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Quote:
"The Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God. It has been attested, authenticated, by God Himself.


How does Sproul know that the bible is the word of God and that God Himself has authenticated it?

Did Jesus promise to guide Sproul unto all truth? Is Sproul infallible?

If Sproul had said that the koran was the word of God & that God himself has authenticated it should we believe that too?


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
But where does the Bible say that the standard of proof is the standard that Jesus set? Nowhere. He smuggled that non-sola-scriptura assumption in. Pull it out and the whole edifice of his argument shatters.


John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’d ? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:03 pm 
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Not an answer.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:18 pm 
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Notice how Jesus said, "Is it not written in your law..."


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:16 am 
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Well, so far you guys have rejected 3 scriptures that specify Jesus actions as verification of scripture.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:27 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Well, so far you guys have rejected 3 scriptures that specify Jesus actions as verification of scripture.


We haven't rejected any "scriptures". We just don't buy yours or Sproul's eisegesis.

The issue isn't about the "verification of Scripture". That's an absurd accusation because we have in the Church the Scriptures which we received from the Apostles. The authority of Scripture and the content or canon of Scripture is not a problem for us.

The issue is how do you know what books are "Scripture" without Scripture explicitly telling you & whether "sola scriptura" constitutes "the word of God"?

You insist that because Jesus "verified scripture" you're then making the logical equivalent of "the jump program" from the Matrix and insisting that necessarily means that Jesus taught "sola-scriptura".

And like Neo's "first time" the jump cannot possibly be made without your falling flat on your face. :wink:

The Scriptures clearly say otherwise than what you're suggesting.

You're beginning with your opinion of sola scriptura.

And then you're ripping verses out of context to support that preconceived idea.

You're saying that Jesus placed this huge emphasis on "scripture alone" when nowhere does Jesus tell His disciples to write anything down.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:24 pm 
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Jesus specifically stated that his words had the authority of God proven by the power that he demonstrated. The Pharisees stated that even they accepted that proof. "We know that you are a teacher come from God" John 3:2 ...
Paul, mentored by Jesus, said and did the same thing. 1Cor2:4 Paul also admonished not to accept teaching from anybody without first testing it "Test the spirits"... and he described the method of proof in the scripture that I referenced. Sproul stated that he accepted that criteria/ proof, specifically described... of any teaching that was given the same level as scripture.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:20 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Jesus specifically stated that his words had the authority of God proven by the power that he demonstrated. The Pharisees stated that even they accepted that proof. "We know that you are a teacher come from God" John 3:2 ...


And? Jesus never needed the opinion of the Pharisees as recognition that He was a teacher from God.

In any case this is not the issue.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Paul, mentored by Jesus, said and did the same thing. 1Cor2:4


Again, not the issue.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Paul also admonished not to accept teaching from anybody without first testing it "Test the spirits"... and he described the method of proof in the scripture that I referenced. Sproul stated that he accepted that criteria/ proof, specifically described... of any teaching that was given the same level as scripture.


What you're ignoring is that both Paul and Jesus handed on to the Church not only the full deposit of the Faith "by word of mouth or by letter"(which is what has always been properly considered the Word of God, i.e. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, throughout all of Church history), but they also affirm that the authoritative interpretation of that Deposit of the Faith rests with the Church(1 Tim 3:15), not with Sproul, nor with you.

Therefore Sproul's statement:
Quote:
Instead the Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God.


...is absurd. It is contradicted even by Scripture(2 Thes 2:15; 1 Thes 2:15; 1 Tim 3:15 ,Acts 15).

Nowhere in Scripture does Scripture teach that all of what Jesus, or Paul, or any Apostle taught is contained in Scripture, was ever intended to be contained in Scripture, or even needed to be contained in Scripture.

For you and Sproul to insist the opposite is to assume the self-same authority of Jesus and the Apostles. Yet neither you nor Sproul have not demonstrated any miracles or provided any demonstration of the Spirit to establish that you have any such authority to make such extra-biblical teaching a "biblical" fact.

You have not given any proof that THIS teaching of Sproul's and yours was given the same level as scripture.

Therefore your argument is still circular.

Repeating it under varying expressions doesn't make it any less circular or any more true.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:33 pm 
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A Ring Bearer wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Jesus specifically stated that his words had the authority of God proven by the power that he demonstrated. The Pharisees stated that even they accepted that proof. "We know that you are a teacher come from God" John 3:2 ...


And? Jesus never needed the opinion of the Pharisees as recognition that He was a teacher from God.

In any case this is not the issue.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Paul, mentored by Jesus, said and did the same thing. 1Cor2:4


Again, not the issue.

EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Paul also admonished not to accept teaching from anybody without first testing it "Test the spirits"... and he described the method of proof in the scripture that I referenced. Sproul stated that he accepted that criteria/ proof, specifically described... of any teaching that was given the same level as scripture.


What you're ignoring is that both Paul and Jesus handed on to the Church not only the full deposit of the Faith "by word of mouth or by letter"(which is what has always been properly considered the Word of God, i.e. Scripture and Sacred Tradition, throughout all of Church history), but they also affirm that the authoritative interpretation of that Deposit of the Faith rests with the Church(1 Tim 3:15), not with Sproul, nor with you.

Therefore Sproul's statement:
Quote:
Instead the Bible is our alone final authority because it alone is the Word of God.


...is absurd. It is contradicted even by Scripture(2 Thes 2:15; 1 Thes 2:15; 1 Tim 3:15 ,Acts 15).

Nowhere in Scripture does Scripture teach that all of what Jesus, or Paul, or any Apostle taught is contained in Scripture, was ever intended to be contained in Scripture, or even needed to be contained in Scripture.

For you and Sproul to insist the opposite is to assume the self-same authority of Jesus and the Apostles. Yet neither you nor Sproul have not demonstrated any miracles or provided any demonstration of the Spirit to establish that you have any such authority to make such extra-biblical teaching a "biblical" fact.

You have not given any proof that THIS teaching of Sproul's and yours was given the same level as scripture.

Therefore your argument is still circular.

Repeating it under varying expressions doesn't make it any less circular or any more true.



Sproul is not claiming to create any new information that has the same level as scripture. He is simply saying that if anyone does so his criteria to test validity is the proof that Jesus and Paul were able to produce.


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