Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 28 of 34   [ 673 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1 ... 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 ... 34  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:47 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4999
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
Doom wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
Not when you realize the reality that the Scriptures themselves presupposes the Church. The Scriptures are authoritative precisely because of the witness of the Church, not because of any individual believer who read it on his own and decided subjectively that it was true.


Huh.....suddenly a lot of fundamentalist theology which before was completely incoherent to me now makes sense. They really do believe that the scriptures are self attesting don't they? That all one has to do is 'read the scriptures with an open heart and mind' and they will magically be convinced of the truth of Christianity, and magically arrive at all of the correct doctrines and interpretations without any effort on anyone's part, don't they? So this is why the Gideon's are running around giving people copies of the Bible and thinking that is all they have to do? They really think that just picking up a Bible and reading it is enough, that's all you have to do, and if you come up with a different interpretation than their own, it is because their 'heart and mind were not truly open' or they didn't pray their right prayer, or the Holy Spirit didn't entire their heart. And they really do think that in the early Church, the sole evangelizing that was done was handing out copies of the scriptures and everyone magically figured it out for himself, magically arriving at the same interpretations? And if someone reads the Bible and comes up with a different interpretation, the only possible explanation is that such person is simply a bad person, or he didn't 'read the Bible with an open heart'. This explains why they think all they have to do is just quote a couple Bible verses and we'll fall to their feet repenting of our evil Romish ways and wanting to join their sect. Wow, a great big light bulb just turned on illuminating everything.


That's what I was taught when I was young and going to evangelical services and Sunday morning bible school. Just read the Bible and the Holy Ghost will guide you and direct you to the truth, with a little direction of course from your Sunday school teacher.



Revelation 3 covers that question/ concern.


Which part precisely ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:50 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76476
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Editorializing and labeling has no validity.


Yeah, of course, only your OPPONENTS editorialize, right? When you speak it is simply the unvarnished truth with no opinion in it, right?

It is difficult to take you seriously when you refuse to argue, debate or discuss anything, and refuse to even acknowledge the existence of a contrary opinion, and won't even acknowledge counter arguments when they are offered but instead make the blanket claim that every counter argument is 'invalid' without bothering to explain why or to refute the argument.

This isn't a debate, it's a monologue.

I ask you again, what is your purpose here? Are you here to debate, discuss, learn, grow, mature in your faith or are you just here to preach to us and then ignore all opposition?

This isn't a 'revival' or a Billy Graham Crusade, you don't get to just preach at us and pretend that we're not even here. If that is all you want to do, then find a pulpit other than this message board. That is not what we are here for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:54 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Mithrandir wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Jesus is in the Bible.
Jesus is infallible. He would not choose/ reference fallible words/ writings in establishing his kingdom. In fact the focus of much of what he said was in reference to the correct interpretation of what had been written in scripture ... he often referenced scripture in arguments with the Jewish leaders ... and then rejected the writings and interpretations of the Jewish leaders in favor of the true/ perfect intention of the words. His biggest complaint toward the Leaders was that they were twisting the truth of Scripture to justify themselves... he called them whitewashed tombs.

This is his endorsement of the writings to which you refer:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17

Jesus assumed that the Law and the Prophets were settled authority. He often referred to the OT in establising the points he used to verify his own authority... and to establish his ministry.

Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books.
The New Testament as a whole quotes from 34 of the Old Testament Books.
One quote or reference endorses the entire writing.


You can't prove all 4 Gospels are to be considered Scripture using Scripture alone, that is the point.




Jesus said... "I only do what I see" (know)
Based on his obedience to God the Father ...Jesus assumes infallibility ipso facto. He also assumes that people have the ability to choose to see the truth of his words and those that he endorses ... or not.... again ipso facto.

Jesus said: "If you obey my words you will know" John 8:32

He said clearly " I have the words that produce life" ... But ...

"when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

When he sent the 72 disciples out he said ... "Speak" ... if they reject you ... shake the dust off and leave. Because of obedience... The words themselves had convincing power. Jesus, who has all power in heaven and earth... Knew how to communicate the gospel ...he assumed that the hearer also had power Ipso facto...to accept or reject, ... and the responsibility was on the hearer.
--------
If you begin to question the voracity of Scripture... It follows that the voracity of all Christianity comes into question.


Not when you realize the reality that the Scriptures themselves presupposes the Church. The Scriptures are authoritative precisely because of the witness of the Church, not because of any individual believer who read it on his own and decided subjectively that it was true.



You seem to support bringing the validity of Scripture into question ... and then arbitrarily change the subject ... using Scripture as the foundation to support what you believe to be settled fact.[/quote]

Not at all. I know the validity of Scripture, because I know of the authority of the Church. That the Bible stands as witness to the Church's authority should compel you to look to the Church as well.[/quote]


Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.

Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.

His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:03 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Mithrandir wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
Doom wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
Not when you realize the reality that the Scriptures themselves presupposes the Church. The Scriptures are authoritative precisely because of the witness of the Church, not because of any individual believer who read it on his own and decided subjectively that it was true.


Huh.....suddenly a lot of fundamentalist theology which before was completely incoherent to me now makes sense. They really do believe that the scriptures are self attesting don't they? That all one has to do is 'read the scriptures with an open heart and mind' and they will magically be convinced of the truth of Christianity, and magically arrive at all of the correct doctrines and interpretations without any effort on anyone's part, don't they? So this is why the Gideon's are running around giving people copies of the Bible and thinking that is all they have to do? They really think that just picking up a Bible and reading it is enough, that's all you have to do, and if you come up with a different interpretation than their own, it is because their 'heart and mind were not truly open' or they didn't pray their right prayer, or the Holy Spirit didn't entire their heart. And they really do think that in the early Church, the sole evangelizing that was done was handing out copies of the scriptures and everyone magically figured it out for himself, magically arriving at the same interpretations? And if someone reads the Bible and comes up with a different interpretation, the only possible explanation is that such person is simply a bad person, or he didn't 'read the Bible with an open heart'. This explains why they think all they have to do is just quote a couple Bible verses and we'll fall to their feet repenting of our evil Romish ways and wanting to join their sect. Wow, a great big light bulb just turned on illuminating everything.


That's what I was taught when I was young and going to evangelical services and Sunday morning bible school. Just read the Bible and the Holy Ghost will guide you and direct you to the truth, with a little direction of course from your Sunday school teacher.



Revelation 3 covers that question/ concern.


Which part precisely ?


Jesus sets the precedent of approaching each congregation and each individual within ... individually. Judging each as a separate, personally responsible, entity. He did not ever imply that one body/ congregation of Christians represents the other. His priority ... Each individually represented / lived in his words ... or not.

One incident in one place does not condemn everyone in every place.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:09 pm 
Offline
Potty Hollerer
Potty Hollerer

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 9275
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.


Are you confusing the written word with God's Word?
Quote:
9 Wherefore God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above every name:

10 *That in the name of Jesus, every knee should bow of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:19 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.


Are you confusing the written word with God's Word?



There is no contradiction


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:21 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Jesus said... "I will build my Church."

He did not say... the Church will build itself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:29 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83622
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
False dichotomy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:39 pm 
Offline
Potty Hollerer
Potty Hollerer

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 9275
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.

Are you confusing the written word with God's Word?

There is no contradiction

Your line above that seems to differ ... as you refer to Scripture from Mith's quote.
Quote:
Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.

Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.


Last edited by Notnew on Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:40 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
False dichotomy.



How so?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:41 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 83622
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
God works through human agency (e.g., the inspired writers of sacred scripture). Christ builds His Church through the activities of the Church.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:46 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.

Are you confusing the written word with God's Word?

There is no contradiction

Your line above that seems to differ ... as you refer to Scripture from Mith's quote.
Quote:
Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.

Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.



The O/P and the start of my posts here referred to The infallibility of scripture ... my observation is related to that.

The second sentence that I typed was addressing Myth's statement in his post that I quoted.
2 separate discussions. Sorry for the confusion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:54 pm 
Offline
Potty Hollerer
Potty Hollerer

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 9275
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.

Are you confusing the written word with God's Word?

There is no contradiction

Your line above that seems to differ ... as you refer to Scripture from Mith's quote.
Quote:
Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.

Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.



The O/P and the start of my posts here referred to The infallibility of scripture ... my observation is related to that.

The second sentence that I typed was addressing Myth's statement in his post that I quoted.
2 separate discussions. Sorry for the confusion.

Okay ... if you say so.
But I'm still reading your emphasis of the word as to the written word and not to the Word - to whom it refers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:01 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4999
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
Doom wrote:
Huh.....suddenly a lot of fundamentalist theology which before was completely incoherent to me now makes sense. They really do believe that the scriptures are self attesting don't they? That all one has to do is 'read the scriptures with an open heart and mind' and they will magically be convinced of the truth of Christianity, and magically arrive at all of the correct doctrines and interpretations without any effort on anyone's part, don't they? So this is why the Gideon's are running around giving people copies of the Bible and thinking that is all they have to do? They really think that just picking up a Bible and reading it is enough, that's all you have to do, and if you come up with a different interpretation than their own, it is because their 'heart and mind were not truly open' or they didn't pray their right prayer, or the Holy Spirit didn't entire their heart. And they really do think that in the early Church, the sole evangelizing that was done was handing out copies of the scriptures and everyone magically figured it out for himself, magically arriving at the same interpretations? And if someone reads the Bible and comes up with a different interpretation, the only possible explanation is that such person is simply a bad person, or he didn't 'read the Bible with an open heart'. This explains why they think all they have to do is just quote a couple Bible verses and we'll fall to their feet repenting of our evil Romish ways and wanting to join their sect. Wow, a great big light bulb just turned on illuminating everything.


That's what I was taught when I was young and going to evangelical services and Sunday morning bible school. Just read the Bible and the Holy Ghost will guide you and direct you to the truth, with a little direction of course from your Sunday school teacher.



Revelation 3 covers that question/ concern.


Which part precisely ?


Jesus sets the precedent of approaching each congregation and each individual within ... individually. Judging each as a separate, personally responsible, entity. He did not ever imply that one body/ congregation of Christians represents the other. His priority ... Each individually represented / lived in his words ... or not.

One incident in one place does not condemn everyone in every place.


That's a pretty convenient piece of eisegesis.

They are united in doctrine and practice. Never did we say that they must be required to be united in acts. That's a strawman on your part.

All He is saying is that they need to repent of their dead works and live according to the doctrine and practices that all the Church does.

I simply don't see how this supports your position.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:03 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4999
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Linsou wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.

Are you confusing the written word with God's Word?

There is no contradiction

Your line above that seems to differ ... as you refer to Scripture from Mith's quote.
Quote:
Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.

Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.



The O/P and the start of my posts here referred to The infallibility of scripture ... my observation is related to that.

The second sentence that I typed was addressing Myth's statement in his post that I quoted.
2 separate discussions. Sorry for the confusion.


:clap:
Thank you for proving my point.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:07 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4999
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.


Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.

His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.

Strawman.

I've given you my position on Scripture. Why don't you address that instead of making stuff up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:25 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76476
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Mithrandir wrote:
Thank you for proving my point.


He also proved my point about how he is avoiding conversation and just preaching to us like this is some kind of Baptist Revival Meeting....by ignoring my post and continuing to preach to us like this was some kind of Baptist Revival meeting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:09 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
God works through human agency (e.g., the inspired writers of sacred scripture). Christ builds His Church through the activities of the Church.


I agree. My statement was in reference to my conversation with Mith in which he referred to an experience he had in sunday school.

I was pointing to the fact, in Rev 3 that Jesus was/is hands on and only endorses the character traits that reflect his word/example.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:12 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
Mithrandir wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Again ... you are using the Scripture you seem to question above to now validate your position.


Speaking to your assertion...
And that is exactly what Jesus did in revelation 3.

His word was the plumb line... He illustrated that the Churches are only as good as their adherence to his word.
"God exalts his word above his own name" Psalm 138:2
... which is exalted above every name.

Strawman.

I've given you my position on Scripture. Why don't you address that instead of making stuff up.



I'm responding based on the impression that you agree with the O/P ...
If that is not accurate ...Please clarify.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:57 pm 
Offline
Highness
Highness

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm
Posts: 6665
Religion: Christian
The system, on my end, will be off for a while. If I dont respond that is the reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 28 of 34   [ 673 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1 ... 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 ... 34  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: