Signum Crucis wrote:
Calvinist, can you show me from the Bible where it says that the Bible is our authority?
Can you show me where the Bible trumps the Church?
Your challenge is a bit disengenuous, as we both know the Bible wasn't canonized until a couple centuries later. I'm guessing that's your point.
You guess wrongly. But, back to my questions...where does the Bible say that it has more authority than the Church has? Where does it claim authority for itself?
Can you show me from the Bible where it says that the Church (defined as the Roman Catholic Church) trumps scripture?
You may not avoid answering my question by asking a question. You say the Bible is your authority, not the Church. I want to know where you find that in the Bible. I never said that the Church trumps the Bible.
However, my Bible does say that the Church is the source we go to as a final authority because it is the pillar and ground of truth. What does your Bible say?
Unless you can show me where the Bible specifically defines sacred tradition as the source of all things related to God, I think you need to defer to the teachings of the apostles as recorded in scripture. Peter himself referred to Paul's writings as scripture.
Holy Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition. So there.
You cannot prove from any source, other than the councils of the Catholic Church which defined the canons of Holy Scripture, that Peter said any such thing or that Paul wrote any scripture.
1. But to answer your question, look at what the NT authors did when answering questions. Look at the huge volume of OT quotes that Paul used in Romans. Look at Matt. 21:42; John 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:3-4; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2:2; 2 Peter 1:17-19. They used scripture.
You can't prove the inspiration of the Old Testament writings without relying on the authority of the Catholic Church.
2. There are many things that we hold to that are not specifically defined in Scripture--such as the hypostatic union, the Trinity, etc. Nowhere does it say "God is a Trinity"...yet any orthodox believer believes that. Are you going to throw the Trinity out since it's not defined directly?
The teachings on the Trinity are part of our Sacred Tradition. Purgatory isn't specifically defined exactly, but the concept is there in Scripture.
You have been asked to document your "fuzzy quotes" claim. I'm requiring now that you produce the documentation and give references. Heretofore, I have cut you some slack on documenting your claims, with the understanding that you would produce them. So, now is the time to produce them and give some straight answers for a change.
Show me where I have said anyone on this board has given "fuzzy quotes". I think you guys need to look at what I actually said. Just like the other posters, you appear to be putting words in my mouth. Please stop that. It's not nice.
If you read what I actually said, you willl see that I didn't say that you said anyone on this board gave fuzzy quotes. You made the statement regarding fuzzy ECF quotes, now give us an example of what you meant by that. Are you telling me that you can't give me an example, that it is just something you tossed out there?