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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Journeyman
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Ec2 wrote:

Quote:
The clear instruction in Scripture is where I get facts.



Quote:
Good works are the result of Salvation not the cause.



It seems Etcum, that despite the "clear instruction in scripture" you have got your facts wrong.

Your assertion that good works are the result of salvation & not the cause of salvation is contradicted by the "clear instruction of scripture"!

I again invite you to answer the question I asked in the "justification in James 2" thread (& earlier in this thread) which your protestant brother ChuckM couldn't answer.

If we are saved by faith alone why is it that our reward of eternal life is contingent upon our good works?

Matthew 25:31-46
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If we are saved by faith alone why are we judged according to our works? why are we judged at all? Why is our entering eternal life contingent upon our good works?


Galatians 6, 7-8:

7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

"sowing to the spirit" is a work, doing good is a "work" & as the verse says we will reap eternal life by doing good works.

so again, if we are saved by faith alone why is our "reaping eternal life" contingent upon our good works?


2 Corinthians 5,10:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

Once again why are we judged at all if we are already saved by faith alone? Why are we judged according to what we have done?

Revelation 20:12
English Standard Version (ESV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

I look forward to your reply.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:11 pm 
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A Ring Bearer wrote:
This discussion ought to be moved into a different thread.


Yeah. And the thread title should be: What are the General Principles in the Bible, and do They Actually Apply to Everyone?


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:55 pm 
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The question of the OP still stands.

Signum Crucis wrote:
Provide me a list of infallible books in the infallible Bible and prove to me the infallibility of the list. And since the Bible is your only infallible authority, where does the Bible says that the individual writings contained within are infallible and inspired?


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:12 pm 
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cjg wrote:
Ec2 wrote:

Quote:
The clear instruction in Scripture is where I get facts.



Quote:
Good works are the result of Salvation not the cause.



It seems Etcum, that despite the "clear instruction in scripture" you have got your facts wrong.

Your assertion that good works are the result of salvation & not the cause of salvation is contradicted by the "clear instruction of scripture"!

I again invite you to answer the question I asked in the "justification in James 2" thread (& earlier in this thread) which your protestant brother ChuckM couldn't answer.

If we are saved by faith alone why is it that our reward of eternal life is contingent upon our good works?

Matthew 25:31-46
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If we are saved by faith alone why are we judged according to our works? why are we judged at all? Why is our entering eternal life contingent upon our good works?


Galatians 6, 7-8:

7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

"sowing to the spirit" is a work, doing good is a "work" & as the verse says we will reap eternal life by doing good works.

so again, if we are saved by faith alone why is our "reaping eternal life" contingent upon our good works?


2 Corinthians 5,10:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

Once again why are we judged at all if we are already saved by faith alone? Why are we judged according to what we have done?

Revelation 20:12
English Standard Version (ESV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

I look forward to your reply.


Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in saying that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy. He specifically declared the criteria for salvation and severely rebuked, in the strongest terms, those who would preach another gospel... which he states... is not a gospel at all.

James seems to contradict Paul as well and support your position, above, when he boldly declares: “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
James 2:18

But James goes on to explain the difference between true faith and the counterfeit. He uses the test of action. If a person truly has the faith of God then he cant help but demonstrate it ... Just as Jeremiah described in 20:9
Jesus is God. He pointed to his actions as proof. He was showing that what he did was evidence of who he is at his core. The actions could not make him to be God... they were an outward sign of his inward being. He challenged the Pharisees when they doubted his character by pointing at his deeds.
James uses the word justify in a different manner than Paul, who uses justify to mean “a legal declaration of righteousness.” James, on the other hand, uses it to mean “demonstrate,” just as Jesus did when He said that “wisdom is justified by her deeds” (Matt. 11:19)

When James says Abraham was justified by his willingness to offer Isaac he seems to be contradicting Paul. What he is saying is that the saving quality of Abraham’s faith was demonstrated when he obeyed God. Abraham’s work of obedience did not give him a right standing before God, but it does make his right standing evident.

At the judgement that you reference above "wisdom is justified by her deeds".


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:58 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in saying that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy.


That you might be wrong is not even on your radar.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:21 pm 
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pax wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy.


That you might be wrong is not even on your radar.


Well the only binding principle of his interpretation is his own conscience. If he feels that he's reading it correctly, then he can't be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:56 pm 
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pax wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in saying that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy.


That you might be wrong is not even on your radar.


I'm open to honest discussion. :D


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:25 am 
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Ec2 wrote:

Quote:
pax wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in saying that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy.


That you might be wrong is not even on your radar.


I'm open to honest discussion. :D


Glad to hear it Ec2. I will respond to your earlier post in the new thread Pax started.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:15 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in saying that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy.


When Paul is speaking of 'faith alone', is he speaking in context of judgment day? I would suggest 'never.'

One can always repent and turn to God through faith in Jesus Christ. You don't have to work for ten or twenty years to repent and turn to God in faith and be reconciled to God.

But the 'not by works' doesn't apply to judgment day. Look at what Jesus said to His own disciples about having to be found behaving will upon His return (Mt 24:42-51, Mt 25:1-46, Lk 12:35-48).

After belief, one becomes born again. Jesus said unless one was born again, they couldn't see the kingdom of God.

Faith begets rebirth, which is a new nature, resulting in changed behavior, multiplied fruit, etc., needed to 'pass' on judgment day.

That's my humble opinion. I just don't see any other way taking the Bible as a whole.

-BHM


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:59 am 
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By His Mercy wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Does seem like a contradiction. But if Paul is wrong in saying that Abraham was justified by faith... then Paul and all of his writings are in jeopardy.


When Paul is speaking of 'faith alone', is he speaking in context of judgment day? I would suggest 'never.'

One can always repent and turn to God through faith in Jesus Christ. You don't have to work for ten or twenty years to repent and turn to God in faith and be reconciled to God.

But the 'not by works' doesn't apply to judgment day. Look at what Jesus said to His own disciples about having to be found behaving will upon His return (Mt 24:42-51, Mt 25:1-46, Lk 12:35-48).

After belief, one becomes born again. Jesus said unless one was born again, they couldn't see the kingdom of God.

Faith begets rebirth, which is a new nature, resulting in changed behavior, multiplied fruit, etc., needed to 'pass' on judgment day.

That's my humble opinion. I just don't see any other way taking the Bible as a whole.

-BHM


Heb 11: "All these people were still living by faith when they died. ... Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them."

Paul explains That without faith it is impossible to please God (change behavior).
Romans 7: "So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

He also says that faith is both the substance as well as the evidence of the things (behavior) that please God.

He explains that it is God who works in us to both will and to act (change of behavior) in order to fulfill his good purpose and that it is (faith through) Christ in us that is the only hope of (changing behavior) pleasing God.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Signum Crucis wrote:
Provide me a list of infallible books in the infallible Bible and prove to me the infallibility of the list. And since the Bible is your only infallible authority, where does the Bible says that the individual writings contained within are infallible and inspired?

the bible isnt the only source nor is it infalliable. there are papal writings and traditions that are sacred.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:38 pm 
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Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:41 pm 
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It is absolutely wrong and forbidden, either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred.


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