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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Paul says he wishes all the believers could speak in tongues.


Wishing and wanting, two different things.

However, I would again look real carefully at that passage, for it indicates that he would much prefer they prophesy.

5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth, than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification.

And if you read the entirety of the Chapter, you will see that it is prophesy that edifieth the Church -

4 He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.

And he goes on to put limitations on tongues -

27 If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

And again he shows the importance of prophesy over tongues -

31 For you may all prophesy one by one; that all may learn, and all may be exhorted:

And he even addresses everyone speaking in tongues -

23 If therefore the whole church come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in unlearned persons or infidels, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or an unlearned person, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all.

But the crux of the matter is in the beginning of the Chapter - what tongues does and how prophesy differs -

1 Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in a tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man heareth. Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth, speaketh to men unto edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.

So, while the gift of tongues is a great gift of the Holy Spirit, we need to remember it's place, and not pursue it in occlusion of the others. And this is one of the problems with the Charismatic movements whether it be Catholic or Protestant - there is a view that speaking in tongues is the end-all and be-all of the Gifts. I hypothesize that it has to do with the fact that speaking in tongues is so readily apparent to those around the speaker.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:37 pm 
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MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:
So, while the gift of tongues is a great gift of the Holy Spirit, we need to remember it's place, and not pursue it in occlusion of the others. And this is one of the problems with the Charismatic movements whether it be Catholic or Protestant - there is a view that speaking in tongues is the end-all and be-all of the Gifts. I hypothesize that it has to do with the fact that speaking in tongues is so readily apparent to those around the speaker.


It's true that some circles consider it to be the end-all and be-all, but that's on them. As you so graciously remembered to remind us, it is a great gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't believe any gift of the Spirit is to be ridiculed or shunned. And you also kindly remembered to highlight the difference between that which is intended for the body, and that which is intended for the individual's own good, in regards to his/her relationship to God in prayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:35 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
AJ, I'm sure those who were cursing God had faith.
Yes but what kind of faith? I would say a very impure and polluted one.


And who are you to judge? With what measure you judge shall you be judged.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
AJ, I'm sure those who were cursing God had faith.
Yes but what kind of faith? I would say a very impure and polluted one.


And who are you to judge? With what measure you judge shall you be judged.

You are taking that scripture out of context. We are called to judge the members of the body in order to keep it from becoming corrupted and also for the purpose of helping the individuals that may have brought something impure into the Church (usually unwittingly). Discernment is required to help them, not to condemn them.

If a believer curses God in tongues, it is not them doing it but a spirit operating through them. They will need deliverance and healing to help them to use the gift properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:11 pm 
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MyDogma8MyKarma wrote:

However, I would again look real carefully at that passage, for it indicates that he would much prefer they prophesy.

5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth, than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification.

And if you read the entirety of the Chapter, you will see that it is prophesy that edifieth the Church -

4 He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church.
I emboldened the scripture you quoted to highlight the fact that tongues are inferior to prophecy when there is no interpretation but when there is interpretation, they carry equal weight.

Quote:
So, while the gift of tongues is a great gift of the Holy Spirit, we need to remember it's place, and not pursue it in occlusion of the others. And this is one of the problems with the Charismatic movements whether it be Catholic or Protestant - there is a view that speaking in tongues is the end-all and be-all of the Gifts. I hypothesize that it has to do with the fact that speaking in tongues is so readily apparent to those around the speaker.
I agree that a great many people who speak in tongues assume it to mean they have attained a higher level of spirituality than those who don't. It is sad but I've seen more flagrant sin in Pentecostal tongue speakers than I ever did in the Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian and CoC Churches I used to attend. So tongues in and of itself doesn't make you any better than the next person but it is still a valuable and helpful gift. I think the Devil has put alot of effort into discrediting the gift by managing to entice people to abuse it. It's no wonder people are hesitant to seek it.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:25 pm 
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AJ wrote:
I agree that a great many people who speak in tongues assume it to mean they have attained a higher level of spirituality than those who don't. It is sad but I've seen more flagrant sin in Pentecostal tongue speakers than I ever did in the Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian and CoC Churches I used to attend. So tongues in and of itself doesn't make you any better than the next person but it is still a valuable and helpful gift. I think the Devil has put alot of effort into discrediting the gift by managing to entice people to abuse it. It's no wonder people are hesitant to seek it.

Jeez AJ, how many "churches" have you tried out? No offense, but anyone here would be more than happy to find a nice Catholic parish you can go to for just one Sunday. It won't be as scary as it seems, I promise. You are our brother and we just want the best for you and your family!

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:28 pm 
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Desertfalcon wrote:
AJ wrote:
I agree that a great many people who speak in tongues assume it to mean they have attained a higher level of spirituality than those who don't. It is sad but I've seen more flagrant sin in Pentecostal tongue speakers than I ever did in the Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian and CoC Churches I used to attend. So tongues in and of itself doesn't make you any better than the next person but it is still a valuable and helpful gift. I think the Devil has put alot of effort into discrediting the gift by managing to entice people to abuse it. It's no wonder people are hesitant to seek it.

Jeez AJ, how many "churches" have you tried out? No offense, but anyone here would be more than happy to find a nice Catholic parish you can go to for just one Sunday. It won't be as scary as it seems, I promise. You are our brother and we just want the best for you and your family!
That's OK. Didn't you know I'm 194 years old?

My wife and I have 9 denominations between us. Let's just say we've had a good look around.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:30 pm 
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It's time to come home, bud. Big welcome when you do!

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:54 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
AJ, I'm sure those who were cursing God had faith.
Yes but what kind of faith? I would say a very impure and polluted one.


And who are you to judge? With what measure you judge shall you be judged.

You are taking that scripture out of context. We are called to judge the members of the body in order to keep it from becoming corrupted and also for the purpose of helping the individuals that may have brought something impure into the Church (usually unwittingly). Discernment is required to help them, not to condemn them.

If a believer curses God in tongues, it is not them doing it but a spirit operating through them. They will need deliverance and healing to help them to use the gift properly.


You aren't supposed to judge the level of someone's faith, aj, you are wrong in your assumption. You are to judge the way they conduct themselves as Christians. To judge whether or not someone has or has no faith, or the level at which they have faith is not for you. That is for God to judge. And no, I am not taking that scripture reading out of context.

Mt. 7:1-5 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you . Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden bean in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, "Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrit, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."

I see this scripture as especially fitting for you, AJ. As you refuse to see the truth right in front of you, yet you think you can judge the level of someone else's faith. May God have mercy on you.

My statement still stands. You haven't said anything yet to change my mind in this matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:05 am 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
You are taking that scripture out of context. We are called to judge the members of the body in order to keep it from becoming corrupted and also for the purpose of helping the individuals that may have brought something impure into the Church (usually unwittingly). Discernment is required to help them, not to condemn them.

If a believer curses God in tongues, it is not them doing it but a spirit operating through them. They will need deliverance and healing to help them to use the gift properly.


You aren't supposed to judge the level of someone's faith, aj, you are wrong in your assumption.
How can we help those who are bringing something impure into the body if we don't discern it and make a judgment?

Quote:
You are to judge the way they conduct themselves as Christians. To judge whether or not someone has or has no faith, or the level at which they have faith is not for you. That is for God to judge. And no, I am not taking that scripture reading out of context.
I didn't say that we should judge the level of their faith but that we should be able to discern that there is something impure mixed with their faith.

Quote:
Mt. 7:1-5 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you . Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden bean in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, "Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrit, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
This passage is often misunderstood to be a blanket ban on pointing out the faults in others. The scripture says that we are first to sort ourselves out so that we can then see clearly to help others. If someone was cursing God in tongues, shouldn't we be able to discern it and do something to help them?

Quote:
I see this scripture as especially fitting for you, AJ. As you refuse to see the truth right in front of you, yet you think you can judge the level of someone else's faith. May God have mercy on you.
As I said, it isn't the level of faith we are to judge but the purity. And the reason we do this is not to condemn but to help - I see nothing wrong with this

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:44 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:

How can we help those who are bringing something impure into the body if we don't discern it and make a judgment?


You cannot judge the state of a soul, AJ, and to judge someone's level of faith is to judge the state of their soul. ONLY God can do that. You can judge that what they were saying in tongues is bad, since they were cursing, instead of praising, but to assume from that point that they do not have a level of faith, or the wrong kind of faith is not for you to judge.


Quote:
You are to judge the way they conduct themselves as Christians. To judge whether or not someone has or has no faith, or the level at which they have faith is not for you. That is for God to judge. And no, I am not taking that scripture reading out of context.
I didn't say that we should judge the level of their faith but that we should be able to discern that there is something impure mixed with their faith. [/quote]

Same thing, AJ. You cannot judge someone's faith. When you say you can discern there is something impure mixed with their faith, what exactly are you saying? That you can see into their hearts, into their souls? Because that is what you would have to be able to do to do what you are saying. The only thing you can judge is what came out of their mouths. And it happened to people who thought they were praising God, therefore, one has to be very careful with such things. We are not to enter into these kinds of things lightly.


Quote:
Mt. 7:1-5 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you . Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden bean in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, "Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrit, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
This passage is often misunderstood to be a blanket ban on pointing out the faults in others. The scripture says that we are first to sort ourselves out so that we can then see clearly to help others. If someone was cursing God in tongues, shouldn't we be able to discern it and do something to help them?[/quote]

No, it's not. It's specific. Look to yourself before you judge someone else. And with what measure you judge, especially if you judge wrongly, that measure you will be judged. So for you to judge one's soul, especially when you do not have the eyes of God, is a very dangerous thing in my way of thinking.

Quote:
I see this scripture as especially fitting for you, AJ. As you refuse to see the truth right in front of you, yet you think you can judge the level of someone else's faith. May God have mercy on you.
As I said, it isn't the level of faith we are to judge but the purity. And the reason we do this is not to condemn but to help - I see nothing wrong with this[/quote]

I agree with you completely that we have to help one another, which is why all of the Catholics on this site continually try to explain to you the faith that you seem so stubbornly set on denying.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:49 am 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
You can judge that what they were saying in tongues is bad, since they were cursing, instead of praising, but to assume from that point that they do not have a level of faith, or the wrong kind of faith is not for you to judge.
Which isn't what I did. I said, "Yes but what kind of faith? I would say a very impure and polluted one." I really don't see why you are offended by my suggestion that someone who curses God has a polluted and impure faith. I would have thought that was self evident.

Quote:
You cannot judge someone's faith. When you say you can discern there is something impure mixed with their faith, what exactly are you saying? That you can see into their hearts, into their souls? Because that is what you would have to be able to do to do what you are saying. The only thing you can judge is what came out of their mouths.
"You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Matthew 12:34

"But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." Matthew 15:18

Quote:
I agree with you completely that we have to help one another, which is why all of the Catholics on this site continually try to explain to you the faith that you seem so stubbornly set on denying.
Well you never know, we might all end up helping each other. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:27 am 
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ajw333 wrote:
]Which isn't what I did. I said, "Yes but what kind of faith? I would say a very impure and polluted one." I really don't see why you are offended by my suggestion that someone who curses God has a polluted and impure faith. I would have thought that was self evident.


Yes, that's exactly what you are saying here, AJ. Are you so blind truly that you cannot see this? You say "a very impure and polluted one" speaking of someone else's faith. You aren't speaking of what they said, or what came out of their mouth, but of their faith. You absolutely CANNOT judge another person's faith. It is NOT self evident. Do you think that people who are possessed WANT to be possessed?

Quote:
You cannot judge someone's faith. When you say you can discern there is something impure mixed with their faith, what exactly are you saying? That you can see into their hearts, into their souls? Because that is what you would have to be able to do to do what you are saying. The only thing you can judge is what came out of their mouths.
"You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Matthew 12:34

"But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." Matthew 15:18 [/quote]

AJ....Matthew here is speaking of people who ARE evil. The people I'm talking about were NOT evil people, they were Christians. You cannot even compare them to what Matthew is talking about.

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Well you never know, we might all end up helping each other. :)


One never knows.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:39 am 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what you are saying here, AJ. Are you so blind truly that you cannot see this? You say "a very impure and polluted one" speaking of someone else's faith. You aren't speaking of what they said, or what came out of their mouth, but of their faith. You absolutely CANNOT judge another person's faith. It is NOT self evident. Do you think that people who are possessed WANT to be possessed?
They aren't possessed but oppressed.

Quote:
"You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Matthew 12:34

"But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." Matthew 15:18
Gracie2004 wrote:
AJ....Matthew here is speaking of people who ARE evil.
Not at all! Where does Jesus say that only evil people speak out of their mouths that which is in their heart? Jesus is giving a principle that applies to ALL people.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:36 am 
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ajw333 wrote:
They aren't possessed but oppressed.
I'm impressed. :P
(Speaking as one who's felt oppressed...)


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:41 am 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
Quote:
Well you never know, we might all end up helping each other.


One never knows.

:amen:, Counting on it. AJ's going to convert the whole world. We should call him the energizer.
Our very own energizer bunny!
:pray:


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:06 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what you are saying here, AJ. Are you so blind truly that you cannot see this? You say "a very impure and polluted one" speaking of someone else's faith. You aren't speaking of what they said, or what came out of their mouth, but of their faith. You absolutely CANNOT judge another person's faith. It is NOT self evident. Do you think that people who are possessed WANT to be possessed?
They aren't possessed but oppressed.

Quote:
"You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Matthew 12:34

"But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." Matthew 15:18
Gracie2004 wrote:
AJ....Matthew here is speaking of people who ARE evil.
Not at all! Where does Jesus say that only evil people speak out of their mouths that which is in their heart? Jesus is giving a principle that applies to ALL people.


He says it right in the Scripture...are you really that blind?

"How can you speak good, when you are evil?"

Did you even READ that Scripture, AJ?

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Carmelita wrote:
Gracie2004 wrote:
Quote:
Well you never know, we might all end up helping each other.


One never knows.

:amen:, Counting on it. AJ's going to convert the whole world. We should call him the energizer.
Our very own energizer bunny!
:pray:


Well, to be serious, AJ cannot possibly convert the whole world, because he would be converting them to error. Now if AJ were Catholic, it might be a different story :) So no energizer bunny.

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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
Well, to be serious, AJ cannot possibly convert the whole world, because he would be converting them to error. Now if AJ were Catholic, it might be a different story So no energizer bunny.

I'm thinking ahead. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Speaking in tongues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Gracie2004 wrote:
You aren't supposed to judge the level of someone's faith


Maybe not the level, but this much we know: If they do not profess the true and Catholic Faith, then they do not have any faith.

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