Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 2   [ 31 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:45 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:13 pm
Posts: 34073
Location: Midwest
Religion: Catholic
Nooj wrote:
St Veronica wrote:
Mary was saved prior to her birth. Ergo she was going to heaven.
I've just learned something new, thank you.

If she was saved prior to her birth, does that mean she couldn't have gone to Hell? 95% of my time I've spent talking to Christians have been with Protestants, and there continues to be a debate in some circles about whether if you were saved once, you are always saved. Would that be the case for Mary?


No, once saved always saved is a (dangerous) heresy.

Perhaps a study of predestination would be in order, and I don't mean from the angle of the Baptists.

No Mary could not of gone to hell because her will was perfectly in accord with God's will.


SV

_________________
“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:46 pm 
Offline
DIY Guru Moderator
DIY Guru Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 15773
Location: Gone fishin'
Religion: Jesus said, "This IS My Body!"
No. Even Mary was not once saved, always saved. Her vocation as the Mother of Christ was such that she was given sufficient grace to always seek the will of God over her own will.

_________________
Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:01 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
St Veronica wrote:
No Mary could not of gone to hell because her will was perfectly in accord with God's will.

The M Word wrote:
Her vocation as the Mother of Christ was such that she was given sufficient grace to always seek the will of God over her own will.

I see.

So if I understand you correctly, Mary recieved sufficient grace to seek the will of God over her own will due to her vocation (position in life?) as Mother of Christ. That seems to me, a little unfair. God lightens the load so to speak for Mary, thereby making it impossible for her to go to Hell, whereas millions of believers and unbelievers are not granted such gifts and so have to struggle everyday.

It's the same problem I had for example with Paul recieving Christ in a vision. Without it, he may have been an unbeliever for all his life, so it was a tremendous advantage. And yet the same visions are not accessible to many unbelievers. I know I'd convert instantaneously if Jesus did the same thing to me. But enough with the off-topic rant.

Do you have a link to a website where I could possibly learn more about the concept of grace as it is understood in the Catholic faith?

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:18 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:09 pm
Posts: 4459
Location: La Chiesa del Santo Rosario
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: CSP
Grace

Predestination

_________________
We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one's own ego and one's own desires. - Pope Benedict XVI.

Appeals to personal subjectivity on a matter of objective right is as much a category mistake as claiming that the number 3 is taller than the color blue. - Dr. Francis Beckwith

EENS


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:19 pm 
Offline
DIY Guru Moderator
DIY Guru Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 15773
Location: Gone fishin'
Religion: Jesus said, "This IS My Body!"
Each and every one of us receives grace sufficient to our vocation in life. Your vocation is neither to be the Mother of Christ nor to be an apostle of the early Church. Why should you expect to be given the graces for those vocations? To whom much is given, much is expected. With regard to what was given to either Mary or Paul, they were expected to carry a very heavy load. You are not expected to carry these loads. It would be like me loading my little Honda scooter with jet fuel. It was not designed to perform like a jet. Yet given a bit of unleaded gasoline, it will carry me 70 miles which is great.

_________________
Image Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:54 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73285
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Nooj wrote:

So if I understand you correctly, Mary recieved sufficient grace to seek the will of God over her own will due to her vocation (position in life?) as Mother of Christ. That seems to me, a little unfair. God lightens the load so to speak for Mary, thereby making it impossible for her to go to Hell, whereas millions of believers and unbelievers are not granted such gifts and so have to struggle everyday.


Nobody said it was impossible for her to go to hell. She still had free will to sin, but she chose not to.

If you think it's an easy load for a mother to raise a child knowing that he will be sacrificed for the sins of the world, I want to know what you think a hard load is.

Quote:
It's the same problem I had for example with Paul recieving Christ in a vision. Without it, he may have been an unbeliever for all his life, so it was a tremendous advantage. And yet the same visions are not accessible to many unbelievers. I know I'd convert instantaneously if Jesus did the same thing to me.


If you don't listen to that gentle voice leading you home, why would you listen to anything at all? Most Christians come to believe through faith, and they don't require getting knocked off a horse and made blind in order to believe.

I'll pray that God will knock you over the head with a holy 2X4. :D

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:42 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 6067
Location: Illinois
Religion: Catholic
"What if" questions like this are pointless because they introduce infinite possibilities so there can be no real answer. "What if" Mary fell down the stairs and miscarried..."What if" Joseph refused to take her into his home..."What if" Mary was stoned to death for adultery...Blah Blah Blah. Ignorant questions at best. God knows all things that are and all things that are possible but His providential will only includes that which really is. Our real choices made, not imaginary ones.

_________________
O love that fires the sun
Keep me burning


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:48 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 6067
Location: Illinois
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
95% of my time I've spent talking to Christians have been with Protestants,
Well that is a problem. We are not Protestants and we are most definitely not Evangelical Fundamentalists. You will need a whole new dictionary and vocabulary.

_________________
O love that fires the sun
Keep me burning


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:22 am 
Offline
The Exterminator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:44 pm
Posts: 27472
Location: The Old Forest
Religion: Númenórean Catholic
I don't think it is a terribly rational course of action to entertain the notion that one who is full of grace and has the Archangel Gabriel standing before them could have really refused a request from God. It's like asking me if I'm willing to hit myself as hard as I can on the left hand with a 5 pound shop hammer. Technically, I could say yes.

Really, that example isn't extreme enough, I don't know how compelling the presence of the Archangel Gabriel would be, but I'd say he rivals a shop hammer, at the very least.

_________________
This is absurd.

- Justice Scalia, dissent, King v. Burwell.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:58 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 793
Location: Sydney, Australia
Religion: nothing
Hi everyone again. I just want to say I'm sorry if I came off as insulting. Or harsh. Still learning the ropes here.

_________________
he aha te mea nui o te ao? he tangata he tangata he tangata!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Could Mary have said no?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:12 pm 
Offline
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73285
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Nope, you're doing just fine.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 2   [ 31 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: