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John the Baptist; purified in the womb?
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Author:  John316 [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

I've read, that John was purified in the womb--hence his liturgical feast (unless I'm wrong about that) on his birth whereas Our Lady was conceived without the stain of original sin--both unique graces but a bit different. I guess one could state it this way John was "cleansed from" early on but Mary was "preserved from" at conception. I believe it has been taught by some--though I'm not sure if this is magisterial, that John was sanctified at the visitation upon Mary's greeting and her bringing of Jesus in her womb.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

It is very commonly believed to be the case, but never formally defined. I think it's so commonly believed that it could be the subject of a definition at some future point, but my opinion and 75 cents will get you a morning paper.

Author:  Cyprian [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

Not if you want USA Today. Then you need a dollar. It has gone up.

Author:  Doom [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

Newspaper? What's that? Is it like one of those 8 track player thingies? :scratch:

Author:  John316 [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

Please consider this thought also on the topic of the state of soul of Our Lady and John the Baptist: Whereas Mary's Immaculate Conception preserved her from all actual sin, John's purification may only have dealt with original sin, he presumably still committed actual sin upon reaching the age of reason. My Butler's Lives of the Saints lists two feast days for John the Baptist: June 24 (his birth six months before Jesus') and August 29 (his beheading)!

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

Actually, I believe John is generally thought not to have been guilty of any personal sin.

Author:  John316 [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

John was conceived in original sin and could commit personal sin much like us after our baptism (but still this is a special grace for John being purified in the womb- and it is reasonable to attest it was at the moment when John lept for joy at Jesus during the Visitation a foreshadowing of Christ's saving work to come for all of us.

Also I read in a book called, "MY CATHOLIC FAITH" by Most Rev. Louis LaRavoire Morrow,D.D., page 41, "Saint John the Baptist was cleansed from original sin while he was still in the womb of his mother. He was born free from sin, but he was, like us, conceived in sin."

Do think these conclusions are good and perhaps put this topic to bed?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

John could commit personal sin, but the belief (as I understand it) is that he was preserved by special actual graces from doing so. It's not a doctrine of the Church, but it is a wide-spread belief.

The quotation you cite is accurate.

Author:  John316 [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: John the Baptist; purified in the womb?

After every ones help, research, and contemplation I have come up with the following:

Jesus and Mary were conceived without original sin. John the Baptist was conceived with original sin; but it was cleansed from him when Mary visited Martha, and John reacted to the presence of the Lord. However, I believe the stain of concupiscence the tendency to fall back into sin was residual to John, a weakness.

Jesus, Mary, and John could still be tempted. Jesus as demonstrated in the desert, would deflect sin rather flawlessly because of his divine nature. Mary lacking a divine nature, but conceived without original sin and possessing her needful God given "full of grace" preservation would have no weakness of concupiscence. John would have to conscionably work at sinlessness just a little bit harder because of the residual weakness of concupiscence.

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